Red Fashion Photography Dead?

[Christoffer Glans]

Once again, specific tasks call for appropriate tools. I don´t really see your point. I am very picky about catchlights and how eyes are lit, there is no need to grill a model with continuous lighting and regarding heat a professional strobe system is equipped with tungsten modeling lights (in our case 650W each) and won´t run cooler in a small studio. My experience has been completely different, while we cannot use a motion workflow for the majority of our work it feels more organic and it is easier to get authentic expressions than with MF and strobes and we never ever experienced any heat related problems with make-up, materials, too narrow pupils or making the model feel uncomfortable, rather exactly the opposite. That said I use moderate HMI wattages for these kind of jobs like for this one:

https://www.facebook.com/1449331412...331412023936/1586189741671435/?type=3&theater

Taking a photo like the one you linked to is not very hard with HMIs while reducing things like heat etc. Try doing a 20mm environment full body shoot with five+ light rigs on a location without much power supply. And I think you say the same thing as I do "specific tasks call for appropriate tools". But I didn't come from still photography using the modelling lights on the flashes, I used a light meter. I could have an entirely dark studio and still light my subject with my flashes. I have experienced first hand the result of a shoot with HMIs that turned the models sweet into makeup mess, which wouldn't have happened with flashes.

As for the eyes, try darkening the studio, use flashes and take some photos of a modell when you've been in the dark a few minutes. It's not about any "problems" with the iris, it's that you can never get that kind of gaze with HMIs, that's just biology.

Then there's also the f-stop reason. Using flashes you can pretty much take photographs at F8.0 no problem. With HMIs you need a lot of lights for that or push exposure time down or ISO up.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Taking a photo like the one you linked to is not very hard with HMIs while reducing things like heat etc. Try doing a 20mm environment full body shoot with five+ light rigs on a location without much power supply. And I think you say the same thing as I do "specific tasks call for appropriate tools". But I didn't come from still photography using the modelling lights on the flashes, I used a light meter. I could have an entirely dark studio and still light my subject with my flashes. I have experienced first hand the result of a shoot with HMIs that turned the models sweet into makeup mess, which wouldn't have happened with flashes.

As for the eyes, try darkening the studio, use flashes and take some photos of a modell when you've been in the dark a few minutes. It's not about any "problems" with the iris, it's that you can never get that kind of gaze with HMIs, that's just biology.

Then there's also the f-stop reason. Using flashes you can pretty much take photographs at F8.0 no problem. With HMIs you need a lot of lights for that or push exposure time down or ISO up.

Christoffer,

sure, that would be a shot I won´t approach with a motion camera. I think we´re not so far apart. I´m coming from photography background and enjoy the additional possibilities with a motion camera. Bringing out fine textures of fabrics in a full body shot is not exactly where a motion camera shines. Regarding the eyes of a model, I don´t intend to make them look like on drugs, so I usually will have the modeling lights switched on to have the iris closed a bit, the modeling light nearly has no effect to the final exposure as the flash is a hell of more brighter like Zeb already pointed out, no problem to have a bright sunny day look like a night shot and impossible to achieve with continuous lighting.
@ Zeb, regarding the sizes of HMI and strobe, what are you referring to, do you compare a hotshot shotgun with an Arrimax? I wholeheartedly disagree on this point. Flash tubes are thick and long, at least a couple of inches, are linear circular or wound up, so they cannot be a point source like a HMI with light emitting from a gap between the electrodes of what, half an inch or even less? If I´m in need of a crystal clear shadow I will always consider if it makes sense to use a HMI bulb for that even when using strobes for the rest of the lighting.
I also disagree on the point of being a cheaper way and "only" for web. Web has been growing to the most important place photos and ads are placed and with the zoom in functions requires even more resolution than print. I also think it is more important to create an authentic content and mood, I know this is a technical forum in the first place but note you won´t sell anything because of high resolution pixel peeping. YMMV.

 

[Zeb B]

I take it one step further . . . to the human level. Models and a good photographer develop a rhythm during a shoot where the strobe "ready" beep is the 4/4 beat to. Without that rhythm (hot lights) there is no pulse and no pause to strike a new pose. It's a timing and flow thing between us. There is also the glamor of the flashing lights - like a night club - where he / she is the star on the dance floor or red carpet. Or you can blast the model with all the sexy intimacy of a 10K HMI ;-)

Just kidding. RED cams are the best at everything.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Thanks for sharing your precious insights. There will still be that 1 or 2% of work that I like to use a RED for stills or a combination of stills and motion though.

 

[Alberto Guglielmi]

I believe the future is in pulling frames from video, as the cameras gets better and better.
Helmut Newton did plenty of fashion photography without much use for flash, and before flash become a standard in fashion photography, due to improved technology.
In 2002 Hasselblad introduced the H1, which was attached to a 16Mp Kodak back, if I remember correct. Plenty of billboards and print ads created with a camera far inferior to a modern RED (sensor-dynamic range-ISO).
Standards are changing fast. CD's are way far superior to both vinyl and mp3, as for sound quality, and yet they are now lost in transit.

 

[Zeb B]

Thanks for sharing your precious insights. There will still be that 1 or 2% of work that I like to use a RED for stills or a combination of stills and motion though.

Thank you for your condescending reply ;-)

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Thank you for your condescending reply ;-)

Ah, come on. No offense. I thought we had a serious discussion here - you were just asking for it with your torn out of context comment "RED is best for everything"
The rhythm you described can be a valid point when doing commercial stuff but I was referring to the recent style of photography that is less influenced by "posing" of a model and more based on showing authentic, more film like situations / moods in which I could imagine to and have been pulling stills from motion or just lighting with continuous sources. I also used this for personality portraits with great success. This is in no way meant to replace a stills camera (see my first post in this thread) or take over a significant amount of our work. I am just sharing my personal experience as a working photographer and I thought it might be of interest for somebody here.

Cheers
Ulf

 

[Josh Wilkinson]

I believe the future is in pulling frames from video, as the cameras gets better and better.
Helmut Newton did plenty of fashion photography without much use for flash, and before flash become a standard in fashion photography, due to improved technology.
In 2002 Hasselblad introduced the H1, which was attached to a 16Mp Kodak back, if I remember correct. Plenty of billboards and print ads created with a camera far inferior to a modern RED (sensor-dynamic range-ISO).
Standards are changing fast. CD's are way far superior to both vinyl and mp3, as for sound quality, and yet they are now lost in transit.

I think for day to day stuff this is true. There will always be a place for the ultra high end Medium Format/Full Frame stuff.
I haven't had a legitimate photo shoot in 6 months, I actually sold 90% of my photography equipment when I bought my Scarlet.

The new waves of LED Fresnels/Pars are going to solve a lot of the Heat/Power issues. (especially in the more budget market)

The S-mount Par lights that have been coming out are outstanding for hybrid work. No flicker, super cool, can use normal softboxes, and are under $500-$1000

 

[Alberto Guglielmi]

Hey Josh, can you post a link for those S-mount Par? Or the brand. I could not find them via search.
PS I agree. There are always going to be the need for specialized stuff. But the 100Mp MF cameras hold very little interest for me, and I even barely have requests for MF shoots in general.

 

[Björn Benckert]

What release was that? Is that the case on Weapon?

Basics:
in Film you want motion blur to blend frames so you shutter for that
In Stills typically you want frozen, zero blur so you shoot with very short duration strobe flash

Pulling frames from motion is fine for web use but would never reach the level of quality of a MF stills cam + strobe. It's a budget saving compromise for those who don't want to spend for a professional Filmmaker and Stills Photographer.

From a lighting POV: take a camera that is fixed at say ISO320, then let's say you want both eyes in focus shooting on a 100mm+ lens so you have to shoot at F8+, then you want the action frozen so you're looking at shutter 1/500+. That's a freakin big ass hot light both in watts and physical size to ETTR.

A strobe the size of a baseball can overpower the sun by a bunch without melting the model. The quality of light from a very small light source can never be matched by that of a very large source. You can always make a small light source bigger - hard to reverse it. The specular quality you get on micro detail like metallic make-up or fabric cannot be matched with hot lights. Size matters.

As budgets get squeezed I can see RED style cameras being used in a pull frame capacity. That does not mean it is a better method - just cheaper to produce. Like CD's v. Vinyl

Regarding the shutter speeds... the fashion people we work with do not care much for 180 deg shutter for motion. Even back in the film days we shot most high end fashion films for Hugo boss and others on 50ASA and 45 deg shutter and 100 fps and then none of that was going to print, they just simply wanted the film to look like their prints. So if that was not a problem back then why would it be now.

The lights vs strobes... Ofcourse it´s easer to use strobes. But in a well ventilated high ceiling studio it´s actually quite nice to work with a constant light setup contra a dark photo studio where the strobes are smacking away every other second for days on end. And with todays light tech I find a lot of still guys actually like it when all is setup correctly. Off course we also tried the opposite...trying to push high frame rate / flicker free lights into some little still photo booth then off course the place is about to catch fire before lunch... But when setup correctly it´s quite comfortable for everyone, makeup etc, not to work in the flashing dark.

Right now I´m in paris working for possibly the most grand fashion brand of all. They will shoot their stills with still camera but they will do it in the light set of the film. And it´s not about money or any such thing. They got 2 weeks to do it and rented pretty much every camera lens and light you can think of to shoot. So simply they just want the light of the film which is done with a huge rig with 40 or so sky light panels + a bunch of other light. Something that would be would be more than bit cumbersome to replicate with strobes.

Also I was a bit surprised as the DIT down here had 3 rocket X in his cart, and when I asked why he had three of them he explained that the company he works for has 9 weapons. I asked him why he had so many, Fashion still photography was the answer... And if I understood him correctly they are all about to go in for the 8k upgrade.

So I for sure think the motion for still approach for fashion is not just a new hat trick or the gimmick of the moment, I think it´s where fashion shoot will go. I even see a not so distant future where most agencies and clients will not tolerate just to get single frame captures from such shoots. When they understand how it all works they will demand that the camera is capturing even before the model goes in front of camera.

But yes the key is to use the right kind and strong enough light. Joker bug soft tubes are good, Area 51 led fixtures are good.

 

[Samir Patel]

sitting on the sidelines reading this thread. My Scarlet-MX isn't the first camera I would reach for when I intend to shoot stills. I would use a 5D mark III or D800 (love both cameras). Never had an opportunity to go Medium Format (one day a possibility). However if I intend to shoot video and need that resolution to pick frames my Scarlet-MX has not let me down. (in those cases I never intended to go to wall size prints anyway.). Here are a few frames:

Looking forward to the day I can actually shoot these in 5K, 6K and 8K...

 

[Josh Wilkinson]

Hey Josh, can you post a link for those S-mount Par? Or the brand. I could not find them via search.
PS I agree. There are always going to be the need for specialized stuff. But the 100Mp MF cameras hold very little interest for me, and I even barely have requests for MF shoots in general.

I've been eye balling these as - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...y_mb_100dwv_monobright_daylight_led_1200.html

These were announced at NAB - http://nofilmschool.com/2016/04/apu...-leds-lyra-lavalier-mic-d3-shotgun-microphone

Alzo has some there put out like 25,000 lumens+ but have a slight green cast I'm not a fan of.
http://www.adorama.com/AZV1913.html


Someone correct me if I'm wrong I'm no HMI expert, but these are in the 600-1000w HMI equivalent range

 

[AJ Aguirre]

Is it just me or does there seem to be a problem with the sensor on the left side of the image?

 

[Josh Wilkinson]

Is it just me or does there seem to be a problem with the sensor on the left side of the image?

It's color fringing off the lens. Using leica m lenses. I could've fixed it, but for time constraints decided not to. Didn't bother me that bad.

 

[Zeb B]

Regarding the shutter speeds... the fashion people we work with do not care much for 180 deg shutter for motion. Even back in the film days we shot most high end fashion films for Hugo boss and others on 50ASA and 45 deg shutter and 100 fps and then none of that was going to print, they just simply wanted the film to look like their prints. So if that was not a problem back then why would it be now.

The lights vs strobes... Ofcourse it´s easer to use strobes. But in a well ventilated high ceiling studio it´s actually quite nice to work with a constant light setup contra a dark photo studio where the strobes are smacking away every other second for days on end. And with todays light tech I find a lot of still guys actually like it when all is setup correctly. Off course we also tried the opposite...trying to push high frame rate / flicker free lights into some little still photo booth then off course the place is about to catch fire before lunch... But when setup correctly it´s quite comfortable for everyone, makeup etc, not to work in the flashing dark.

Right now I´m in paris working for possibly the most grand fashion brand of all. They will shoot their stills with still camera but they will do it in the light set of the film. And it´s not about money or any such thing. They got 2 weeks to do it and rented pretty much every camera lens and light you can think of to shoot. So simply they just want the light of the film which is done with a huge rig with 40 or so sky light panels + a bunch of other light. Something that would be would be more than bit cumbersome to replicate with strobes.

Also I was a bit surprised as the DIT down here had 3 rocket X in his cart, and when I asked why he had three of them he explained that the company he works for has 9 weapons. I asked him why he had so many, Fashion still photography was the answer... And if I understood him correctly they are all about to go in for the 8k upgrade.

So I for sure think the motion for still approach for fashion is not just a new hat trick or the gimmick of the moment, I think it´s where fashion shoot will go. I even see a not so distant future where most agencies and clients will not tolerate just to get single frame captures from such shoots. When they understand how it all works they will demand that the camera is capturing even before the model goes in front of camera.

But yes the key is to use the right kind and strong enough light. Joker bug soft tubes are good, Area 51 led fixtures are good.

Well stated and agree on the Joker 800 / Tubes. Best product they make although, like all their products, there is a fit issue. This time causing a light leak out of the flange which requires black foil. The Big Eye is also cool if you want that George Hurrell noir glamor look. But again, a real toothache in the mechanical design department. I had to completely re-engineer the pig so it wouldn't flop over and kill someone.

For the Paris shoot be sure to bring your Gale Dawg Poo lenses. Haven't used mine yet on a serious project but the tests are fuckin amazing!

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Have to agree on the mechanical design of K5600. I bought the big eye and while it is absolutely awesome to have a "fold away" big eye the yoke is very flimsy and I had to buy fitting screws as the ones delivered were too short. They really need to improve this department. For anyone looking into small HMIs broncolor also offers a range of 200 / 400 / 575 / 800Watts lights.
Zeb, can you elaborate about the Gale Dawg Poo lenses?

 

[Zeb B]

Have to agree on the mechanical design of K5600. I bought the big eye and while it is absolutely awesome to have a "fold away" big eye the yoke is very flimsy and I had to buy fitting screws as the ones delivered were too short. They really need to improve this department. For anyone looking into small HMIs broncolor also offers a range of 200 / 400 / 575 / 800Watts lights.
Zeb, can you elaborate about the Gale Dawg Poo lenses?

This:
http://www.richardgaleoptics.uk/dogschidtoptiks/trumpsystem/

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Thanks, yeah these look very tempting if you got the right job for them

 

[Zeb B]

Thanks, yeah these look very tempting if you got the right job for them

like a cute little girl:
https://vimeo.com/106292534

. . . the lowcon softness with clarity of hair. Mmmmm tasty

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Fashion photography isn't dead, Fashion photography using a RED camera is dead. No legit photographer in their right mind would use a RED for a photoshoot. Too many complications to make it work right. And at the price of a RED, for photography, I would just buy a Phase One instead.

Sorry...

You could NOT be further away from truth...

Camera for a Pro Photographer is a Choice given the situation and shooting needs... Same as for a Cinematographer...

RED way in to Fashion Photography... And an array of other styles of Photography... Has literally just give birth to their biggest tool... The Weapon 8K...


Watch what is going to happen in the Still market with this camera... Wait for it...


Btw... https://www.facebook.com/8kVentuRED/ is just one of my personal projects in view of Weapon 8k... And it won't be a small thing either...