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RED EPIC VS HDSLR

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nhayder

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hi there everybody i'm new here on this forum, i was wondering if somebody can help my in understanding a couple of issues related to depth of field.

i'm planing to get a Video camera and to start working on my short film the issue here is that i'm not relay a technical guru?? neither a cinematographer so hopefully i will post some question in this forum and i hope somebody will answer these questions for me.

Controlling the depth of field:
now there is a couple of cameras out there in the market that can guaranteeing full control over depth of field and cinema look for the footage

example :
1- i can get Cannon 5D mark 2
2- Panasonic AG-AF 101 (Professional camcorder)

and these 2, both of these cameras are interchangeable lenses and used by a lot of people all around the world.

my question is :
1- can the RED EPIC have interchangeable lens feature ???
2- Can it garrante full control over depth of field.
3- and how climatic is the footage shot by this camera.

than you for having me here.
 
nhayder said:
my question is :
1- can the RED EPIC have interchangeable lens feature ???
2- Can it garrante full control over depth of field.
3- and how climatic is the footage shot by this camera.

than you for having me here.
Click to expand...

Welcome!

1- yes, Epic can have interchangeable lenses. Not only that, but interchangeable lens mounts: PL, Panavision, Canon, Nikon... Probably more, but those are announced.

2- yes to control over depth of field. More than an S35 Arriflex.

3- do you mean "cinematic"? If that's what you mean, then go see Social Network. Judge for yourself.
 
David, that was the most generous answer I've ever seen here for a newbie. Many other folks here would've been way more rude. I applaud you, seriously.
 
Depth of field relates directly to the target size -- for digital that target is not 35mm film, but a sensor. A simple chart comparing sensors of several digital cameras was posted earlier today here: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54205

Bigger sensor = shallower depth of field. You'll get shallowest with the 5D because it is a Full Frame sensor (FF). By 'Full Frame' they are referring to the size of a strip of 35mm film (when laid on its side as it is in still photography). When this 35mm film runs through cinema cameras it runs vertically, and a smaller portion of it is used to capture an image, so the depth of field you see and enjoy in movies is achieved off a target closer to the sensor size of the RED One.

In short, the Epic S35 sensor is larger than AF100, smaller than 5D.

Each of these cameras has interchangeable lenses. All should be able to let you achieve your desired depth of field.

There is a lot of difference between these cameras besides sensor sizes. A lot of those differences should go into your decision making. A lot. Hope that helps.
 
Jonathan Stevenson said:
David, that was the most generous answer I've ever seen here for a newbie. Many other folks here would've been way more rude. I applaud you, seriously.
Click to expand...

I don't, people are getting too lazy nowadays.
And back to the questions, there is only one answer. You want a video camera.
There are no video cameras at RED. Go for the canon or the panasonic.
 
nhayder said:
hi there everybody i'm new here on this forum
Click to expand...

Hi nhayder - this is a "Real Name" forum - you need to have your username changed to follow the rules. You can do that in this thread.

nhayder said:
i'm planing to get a Video camera
Click to expand...

Well, as you said you are neither a technical guru nor a cinematographer, so I can't blame you for not understanding that RED cameras aren't "Video cameras" in the strictest sense. They record what could best be described as a digital negative in a proprietary compressed RAW format known as REDCODE. This allows the image to be manipulated heavily (and easily) in post while keeping lots of image quality.

In comparison, video cameras record to a video codec which bakes in much of the look of the image and often requires so much compression that image quality is sacrificed.

In short, the big upside to REDCODE is that it has exceptional image quality with lots of ability to change it in post (WB, ISO, etc are not baked in).

The downside is that REDCODE is more resource hungry - it generally requires more computing power and more time than processing simple video codecs. This is the price that is paid for such beautiful footage!

nhayder said:
1- can the RED EPIC have interchangeable lens feature ???
Click to expand...

All RED cameras, with the exception of the Fixed Scarlet, have interchangeable lenses and as previously mentioned, interchangeable lens mounts. This means that the camera could be used with PL mount lenses, electronically controlled Nikon or Canon lenses, etc.

nhayder said:
2- Can it garrante full control over depth of field.
Click to expand...

Yes. The Epic has a sensor that is very close to the same size as a piece of Super-35mm film - the current industry standard, if you will, for shooting film. In this manner, all of the depth of field options that are open to anyone shooting film are available to you when shooting RED Epic.

nhayder said:
3- and how climatic is the footage shot by this camera.
Click to expand...

There are entire major motion pictures with budgets in the hundreds of millions of dollars that have been and are being shot on RED and RED Epic.

These are cameras built to be used by cinema professionals for cinema productions.

So, I suppose I mean to say that the footage can be very climatic (or cinematic, if that's what you mean) - assuming the talent is there behind, around, and in front of the camera.

nhayder said:
thank you for having me here.
Click to expand...
Welcome :cheers2:
 
Welcome!

This subject goes far beyond which camera is up to the job, it's more about what you will find most useful with limited knowledge.

I would say the 5DmII is your best bet as it's affordable (you can get going for about $3,000 including a lens) and somewhat easy to use. It's also pretty WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) so if it looks good it looks good.

If, on the other hand, you are willing to put some real time in learning and also willing to spend the money, EPIC will give you so much more quality, options and joy, but it comes at a price.

Best of luck.
 
The Nikon D3100 is a great super-portable option while waiting on EPIC and Scarlet. I just sold my 5DM2 because I like the 24p 1080 video from the D3100 better especially with my 50mm f1.2 Nikon lens!

-michael zaletel
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
to be completely honest.. if you ask the question..
"Can it guarantee full control over depth of field."

you should probably just stick with a hdslr....
Click to expand...

I completely agree.

I spent many many months pouring over reduser before I even registered. There is more than enough info to answer any newbie question if they take the time to READ.

I'm not trying to sound rude, but you have to understand we see the same questions pop up over and over again. Take some time, read through as many posts as you can and you'll learn a TON about what the RED camera and future EPIC have to offer. This is by far my favorite place on the internet to hang out and learn from the pros. Be careful, you might find yourself addicted.
 
5D II line skips to get 24P. Measured resolution is a shaky 1.2K horizontal. Much less than the 1080P package size (1.9K horizontal). Shooting RAW makes as much sense with motion as it does in stills. Do you shoot jpeg stills?

The 5D II has much less DR (dynamic range) than the serious motion capture cameras, including the Alexa and F35.

The future is 4K... not 1080P. Especially not a "thin" 1080P.

Other than that... the 5D II is a great stills camera.

Shoot 4K (or 5K for a 4K finish), REDCODE RAW and have a nice day.

Jim
 
we are FAR too kind on this forum - good on u guys for not shooting the guy into the ground. i wouldve probably... well ive just learned to not bother saying anything.
 
Hi guys,

Just a short comment to add my appreciation for those of you who patiently responded to this post. Everyone starts somewhere. Encouragement is good for the newbie and good practice for those who have arrived.

Tom
 
Did I mention moire and aliasing?

Jim
 
Yes everyone is being nice here ... but we should be, it's clear from the question that this person is just beginning.

I encourage you to read throughout this entire forum -- so many amazing posts and people who will help you learn, especially as you educate yourself and master the basics better and better. The more you can ask informed, engaging questions the better responses and level of help you will receive.

Controlling depth of field can simple on the surface ... but can get very complex if you're comparing/working with different cameras, sensor sizes and lenses. As others noted, it's affected by sensor size, aperture setting of the lens, distance to the subject, and even focal length of the lens.

For example, you mentioned the AF100 ... it's sensor is about half the size of the FF35 sensor on the 5D, which makes it more difficult to achieve shallow depth of field. You would tend to need much faster lenses if you're looking to create a "5d look" on a Micro 4/3 sensor camera like the AF100.

As Jim mentions, these cameras are plagued with problems that even the "DSLR gurus" repeatedly acknowledge. Rolling shutter (jello effect), aliasing, moire, etc ... but probably the worst of all is the fact that they are designed to line skip.

David Mullen explained this to me once (check out his thread here on the forum, it's an amazing learning resource) ....

But with the 5D sensor being about 1.3x larger than the Epic -- why does it have significantly less resolution? Well, part of how they achieve this is to selectively "skip" lines, causing you to literally lose part of the image that should have been captured. This might be okay for the web (part of the reason these cameras were given "video" is so that photojournalists could capture moderate-quality video while on location; they were never intended for serious cinema use) ... so it becomes a big problem when projected onto larger screens.

Also, just like raw stills versus jpegs -- with the compressed, lower-resolution, line-skipped image ... you have WAY less latitude in terms of being able to adjust the image in the post process ... another big bummer.

Anyway, that's enough ranting ... don't buy the 5D, not only does it have flaws but there's probably a new one coming out this year. And by that time, Epic and Scarlet will be hitting the streets and you won't be far from getting one ... so just learn, learn, learn and save your $$$$.

Welcome to the boards :)

Anthony
 
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Start at the beginning

Start at the beginning

I would like to take a different approach to examining your question.
A good place to begin:

You said you are not a technical person, nor a camera person by nature.

You want to make a film. Start at the beginning.

What kind of film?

How long?

How many days do you want to take to shoot it?

Who is your audience?

How do you want it to look? (Hollywood glossy look, scrappy
Indie look, or in between?)

Do you plan on doing everything yourself? If so,
You have a bigger challenge ahead of yourself.

If you want something watchable, you need to educate yourself technically.
If you want something that doesn't sound terrible you need to learn to record sound.

My suggestion: figure out your goals for the film, set a -total- budget for yourself from start to finish and figure out what you want to spend on for the results you desire.

You could spend $4000 or $5000 on an obsolete 5DII package, shoot for two months and end up with crap, or you could spend $2000 hiring a cameraman with camera, $1000 for a sound recordist, $2000 for miscellaneous, shoot for two days and end up with a gem that could go to Cannes or sundance.

If you want to make something for the Internet, post some ads on craigslist and put it together.

If you want to become a cinematographer start doing some serious research.

There is a lot of competition out there ;)
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
to be completely honest.. if you ask the question..
"Can it guarantee full control over depth of field."

you should probably just stick with a hdslr....
Click to expand...

Actually, I would say stick with nothing... and take a cinematography or photography course. Or film school...

HDSLRs still take a high degree of knowledge to get a get a decent picture. I was consulted a few weeks ago by someone I did a music video for looking to get a 7D and they asked me if a 300mm lens would would be good for "all-around" shooting. Seriously... :banghead:
I told him straight up, "if you have never shoot video before, start with a handy cam. I can get a good picture out of a 7D but you're years away." It's funny how people see you shooting with something and then think they can buy the same camera and get the same results.

The path of cinematography should start at a a Best Buy handy cam. Then learn WHY you need manual controls/focus/white balance and move up to something like an HVX or Canon camcorder. Master that... and then when you understand WHY you need shallow DOF and interchangeable lenses move to a HDSLR. Then once you master the basics of 35mm cinematography and understand WHY you need the flexibility of something like RAW, start shooting on Red.

Shallow DOF will not help you if you do not understand why you need it. Just like RAW will not help you if you do not understand how it's different than a compressed image. If you can't answer the question of WHY you need something... then you're not ready for it. And "because that's what pros use" is not an acceptable answer.
 
An hdslr is a great start. Take film AND photography classes.
 
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