Red epic raw vs Blackmagic 4k raw on post

[Björn Benckert]

Your use of the term "throw out" is indicative of the way a lot of people look at compression, and it is very inaccurate. Information is never "thrown out." What compression techniques do, among other things, is look for things like redundancies in the data to allow a lot of information to be expressed in a much smaller space. So, for instance, if you photograph a black table, and the light is fairly even, you can express those values digitally in multiple ways. One way would be to write every pixel into a file with the same value, so you have a one to one relationship - i.e., if you're describing 1000 pixels, you have 1000 recorded values. Or, you could say "take the first value and use it for the next 1000 pixels." The second way takes up about 999 times less space in a file, but when the image is reconstructed, you get the same result. That's what would be referred to as "lossless" compression. Other techniques use mathematical formulas to record information in a similar way (using channel math, things like subtracting the green value from the red and the blue to produce smaller numbers to encode, are common). Still others use different levels of resolution to express the image at different detail levels which, when combined, yield a very close match to the original image, but can also provide less detailed versions at lower resolutions by not including the "overlays" of the highest resolution, and only extracting the lower resolution records. That's essentially what wavelet compression is, and that is the basis for what Red - and Sony, and Cineform, and others - do. So while you might be under the impression that information is simply "thrown away," that is not the case. It is encoded in a way that takes up less space, and the amount of precision that is retained is dependent on both the level and type of compression used. Obviously, I'm leaving out a lot of other details (intra vs. interframe encoding, DCT algorithms, etc., etc.) but that is the gist of it. The Cinema DNG format was developed by Adobe as an adjunct to its DNG format that was already on the table for still images, and proposed as a standard, but it has only really been adopted by Blackmagic, Ikonoscop, and Adobe at this point. As I recall (and I could be wrong on this) the original format allowed for a degree of lossless compression, and that is likely what Blackmagic is employing. I'm not aware of the specific techniques they're using, but suffice it to say that what Red does with Redcode and what Blackmagic does are considerably different, with different results. Redcode is lossy, but with the higher resolution images that Red captures that is far less significant. Blackmagic's is a lot less lossy - and possibly lossless - but that also limits the amount of compression that they can use, which explains why their files are considerably larger even though the captured image is at a lower resolution. In terms of color grading, none of this is particularly significant because you can't grade any image until you decompress it. Anything that you're doing is being done on a fully reconstructed RGB image by definition. So although one needs to be aware of possible artifacts generated by either the compression, decompression, or reconstruction processes, it has no direct bearing on the colors you mix.

Hopefully that doesn't complicate this even more.....

jupp that is pretty much how it works.

graded a BM image today, must say I kind of like the feel of the image. I can push things around quite far without seeing any sort of "digital artifacts"

Here is source (as jpg): http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/oddgroup_1_2013-09-03_2246_C0014_000222.jpg
and here is the same frame that past tough flame: http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/KodakPrint_0002greeboost.jpg

I added the noise, not becuse I needed to hide artifacts, more since I though it suited the shot.

Question anyone that has calculated how much data loss epic 3:1 is. as I understand the "3:1" number is more a ratio for file size compared to uncompressed / unpacked footage. But how much of the 2 missing thirds are actually taken out of the equation and how many are packed in... do not think I use the right terminology here but I think you understand what I mean.

 

[Steve Das]

...I added the noise, not becuse I needed to hide artifacts, more since I though it suited the shot...

Yes..it sure does..nice work. That bit of texture really adds to the atmospheric feeling of the weather environment in the shot. Seems to add more dimensional feel.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Yes..it sure does..nice work. That bit of texture really adds to the atmospheric feeling of the weather environment in the shot. Seems to add more dimensional feel.

agree there is a Kodak print lut kicking in there as well, applying it post log grain really makes the grain go gritty in the right way I think, it boosts it in lowlights and keeps the highlights clean.

 

[Adam Johnson]

I LOVE my Blackmagic 2.5K. The image coming from it is spectacular and it is the PERFECT B-Camera to my RED ONE MX. And I prefer using it over my RED ONE when I am doing RUN and Gun Documentary/ Reality TV type work. The ProRes image is SPECTACULAR as well!

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

I saw a BMPC 4K hooked up to a 4K monitor at a show BMD put on a couple weeks ago. I got my hands on it and tried to see what it could do, though it was a pre-production camera. Anyway, there were two things that struck me while playing around with it for a few minutes, its crazy sharp, and its not that sensitive. Seemed like a great low cost camera head to plug into their 4K switchers in a studio and get nice looking images in a studio, but relative to other cameras out there, the sensitivity and DR seemed they could be a bit lacking even compared to the 3yr old MX sensor.

Another thing that would worry me about BM RAW is that I haven't been that impressed with Cinema DNG workflows and support compared to RED's RAW workflow. Metadata may be read differently or not at all by different software and gamma curves may or may not match what you saw in camera depending how you open your footage. I haven't used it much, but thats the impression I got when I was trying to get some CinemaDNG RAW files to work. Obviously this depends what you do with your DNGs and what software you are using, but it does not seem as polished as workflows available for RED. DNG is catching on lately though so maybe support will get much better and more standardized.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

You make some pretty bold assertions for someone who admitted hasn't used the camera (have you even used the BMCC?) Case in point, the BMPC is actually supposed to have compressed raw. Global Shutter and built-in Prores/DNxHD are huge advantages over 1 extra stop of DR for 99% of jobs, especially when they are being lit properly (and honestly, there have been a lot of tests that put MX closer to 12 stops usable anyway). As for no OLPF -- if its images are anything like the BMCC's it means clearer images more than over-sharpened aliasing... 4k that actually resolves 4k. You want to get rid of aliasing, you can blur it down to match REDs 4k (~3.2k resolved) and they'd probably look fairly similar (moreso when rendered out to 2k/1080p). Plus it's shootable out of the box and doesn't require proprietary media.

Crapping on a camera that isn't out yet (but actually looks amazing on paper and/or based of the company's previous products, much like REDheads do about RED's unreleased hardware) is a bit like saying, 'Dragon is the best sensor ever' without using it. Don't be foolish.

To the OP: At the very least the BMPC is going to force Scarlet prices to ~$4k, so if you're actually considering a purchase and money is tight, the smart thing to do is rent (at least until you know for sure if it meets your needs).

The BM current camera has many issues related to aliasing and no top DOP I have spoken with (I'm counting maybe 10) would ever use it for anything other than a crash-cam. Really its' only selling point vs many other solutions is low price.

As far as that extra stop, well it depends where you are and what you are doing. Sometimes lighting as well as you would like is not possible. Dynamic range also affects fall-off quality, color precision in the darks, etc.

They have stated that there would be no OLPF on the 4K at a conference - so I;m only quoting BM. The OLPF is there for a reason (otherwise why would all other camera makers bother with the expense) to say its absence makes image "clearer" to me is a rather odd idea of what constitutes texture and clarity, and is a rather unsophisticated comment on your part.

I have more of a liking for subtlety and organic sharpness as per Red products and Alexa deliver.

Since most clients and DPs have a more complex understanding of images and their qualities than you do, I would not say Scarlet will need to drop in price at all.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

First, I said "users" without regard to type. Some are likely "professionals" and others are not. That doesn't discount the fact that BM has sold quite a few of these, people are using them, and are happily doing so. Second, I can point to a feature shooting in New Orleans at the moment that is using it for "body cam" shots. It was tested against the Canon 7D and 5D, as well as GoPro for specifically this purpose. It was chosen because despite the moire issues, the image was sharper, cleaner, and had better color fidelity than any of the other options, not to mention considerably better resolution, in a package that is not vastly different than the 5d in terms of size and weight. Any really objectionable moire will be cleaned up, as these shots are "specialty" shots and will not be on screen for any great length of time. In other words, it's not being used as an "A" camera (on this picture, the "A" camera is an Alexa, recording 2K Prores). But it is being used. By a professional cameraman.

Yes it's a greta crash cam, great for uninsured Octocopter shots, body cams, parachute cams, etc. but you still need that a-cam, so it's not affecting A-Cam choice. Yes its' better than gopro and 5D - but that's not exactly hard to pull off. You can't really clean up false resolution aliasing, you can only mask it, and textures suffer.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I would counter that the BM camera is not aimed at those who would buy and/or use an Epic. It is aimed at those who would look at Scarlet, which admittedly does have superior specs to the BM (although, as I said earlier, the "current" BM spec is only a general guide because the product doesn't exist yet - everything is subject to change - count on it :laugh: ). And those features are meaningful to many prospective buyers. But the price of the Scarlet - although almost twice that of the BM - is still very, very low. And I'm not sure - nobody is - that the image quality itself is going to be twice as good. Better, sure. Significantly better, probably. But twice as good? Who knows. That's what I meant by price not being relevant. Dismissing these low priced products as being unusable based on price is done at one's own peril. Does anyone still think that Resolve is a less than professional product simply because it only costs $1000? Or that Avid Media Composer isn't as good as it used to be because they lowered the price dramatically?

Since that camera is maybe 1% of a production budget (maybe less) but likely the single most important piece of gear, you can't do math like that. Even if it's only 5% better, you'd still be wise to opt for it - what's $300 more a day to rent something even slightly better, to shoot $$$$$ worth of sets actors and so on.

Its' like serving an elaborate fresh lobster meal, and then buying cheap no-name margarine instead for butter to go with it, because hey, butter is 10X the price, and not really 10X better.

 

[Robert Hart]

If you want to have a cry in your cups about the devastatingly lowered prices on cameras but want to feel better, perhaps spare a thought for us SI2K camera owners who became second port of call when RED came upon the scene. We are now confronted with a camera from BM which is about 1.5% of original outlay on the SI2K if one was choosy about what bits and pieces one bought with it. The book performance of the new compact camera is superior but there seem to be a few real-world issues. Once we have image-tapping from the human eyeball via a headset recorder, all cameras may be about done. So will us writers unless we learn to organise our imaginations on the fly. -------------- A topic for a screen story is in there somewhere. Must get stuck into writing.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

Bjorn , that looks amazing.

 

[Adam Johnson]

Well we must be crazy DP's because it is going to be our B-Camera on a major network TV feature film. In the right hands the camera can create voodoo magic. But then again so can my Red One MX and in 4K along with high frame rates in 2K. Horses for courses I say. As long as you can capture your vision it doesn't matter what tool you use to get their! I guarantee you that once the film is broadcast on TV in 1080p you will never be able to tell what was shot on what

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

If you want to have a cry in your cups about the devastatingly lowered prices on cameras but want to feel better, perhaps spare a thought for us SI2K camera owners who became second port of call when RED came upon the scene. We are now confronted with a camera from BM which is about 1.5% of original outlay on the SI2K if one was choosy about what bits and pieces one bought with it. The book performance of the new compact camera is superior but there seem to be a few real-world issues. Once we have image-tapping from the human eyeball via a headset recorder, all cameras may be about done. So will us writers unless we learn to organise our imaginations on the fly. -------------- A topic for a screen story is in there somewhere. Must get stuck into writing.

S12K is still a fine camera, especially now that you can tether it to a small recorder like an Atomos. BM pocket has all kinds of weird issues including ultra-bizarre bokeh rendition and massive skew. S12K is worth 99 times more than pocket camera, so price of both seems reasonable.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Well we must be crazy DP's because it is going to be our B-Camera on a major network TV feature film. In the right hands the camera can create voodoo magic. But then again so can my Red One MX and in 4K along with high frame rates in 2K. Horses for courses I say. As long as you can capture your vision it doesn't matter what tool you use to get their! I guarantee you that once the film is broadcast on TV in 1080p you will never be able to tell what was shot on what

Not true. Aliasing issues, once re-compressed in Mpg2, will look far worse and the difference between a proper camera with an OLPF and some cheap BM crap will be even more obvious. On some cable distribution systems with adaptive compression based on bandwidth draw, the BM shots will scream out as pixellated mud. I don't know any "major networks" who would accept a BM for lots of shots unless there was some particular reason like crash cam, parachute etc. Any truly "major network" could afford to rent any camera necessary. It's what for a Scarlet $500 a day? $300? Or you could even get an F3 and tether it to a recorder, or an F5, or.... Then again, just because you're major network doesn't mean you will never do really stupid things (see Jay Leno in prime time).

1080p is actually very, very good as a deliverable. You can see even the difference between film and an Alexa in 1080p, between 16mm and 35, between various film stocks. Clear as day, you don;t have to be an expert. I think you are kidding yourself. Particularly bad is how the aliasing of BM cams make skin pores look over-sharpened. Really awful for actresses. I would rather quit a gig than shoot an actress with any aliased camera. Its' just mean to her.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

In the right hands the camera can create voodoo magic.

Perhaps. In most human's hands this small and compact camera is practically unusable without a rig, though.

How a compact motion imaging camera shoud look, so its size and weight advantage can actually be used, can generally be observed in consumer camera realm and motion imaging offers from JVC, Canon, Panasonic and Sony.
FS100 & 700 are the exceptions.

Still camera industrial design applied to motion imaging cameras and behind the tripod shooting, pushed by manufactures's cost savings is also debatable.

 

[Adam Johnson]

Hahaha - keep telling yourself that Rob. Aliasing has not be an issue at all for us in our exstensive testing. We understand the limitations of the Blackmagic just like we do the Red camera systems. The Blackmagic will allow us to get shots we wouldn't be able to get with the Red One MX. And we decided on it over the 5D MK III because the image is far superior as a B-camera/ crash cam (and there is no way in the world we would shoot magic lantern RAW). But the BMCC has a killer Alexa-esque image and DOES match flawlessly with both the Alexa and Red One at 2K resolution. In fact the BMCC resolves a much cleaner and sharper image than the Red One MX at 2K. Quit fooling yourself mate.

Aliasing is easily avoided & I for one dont mind enjoying the full resolution of the sensor.

 

[Adam Johnson]

Absolutely, and a huge portion of the people handling these little cameras have no clue what the hell they are doing. The art of cinematography isn't learned over night, it takes years and years abd years to grasp...and even then tgere is ALWAYS room for improvement. In other words, a camera system can create the cleanest most beatiful film-esque images you have ever seen, but in the wrong hands it can look like pure crap. And the opposite is just a true and something a lot of people seem to forget. A mediocre imager in the right hands can look like gold

Perhaps. In most human's hands this small and compact camera is practically unusable without a rig, though.

How a compact motion imaging camera shoud look, so its size and weight advantage can actually be used, can generally be observed in consumer camera realm and motion imaging offers from JVC, Canon, Panasonic and Sony.
FS100 & 700 are the exceptions.

Still camera industrial design applied to motion imaging cameras and behind the tripod shooting, pushed by manufactures's cost savings is also debatable.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Hahaha - keep telling yourself that Rob. Aliasing has not be an issue at all for us in our exstensive testing. We understand the limitations of the Blackmagic just like we do the Red camera systems. The Blackmagic will allow us to get shots we wouldn't be able to get with the Red One MX. And we decided on it over the 5D MK III because the image is far superior as a B-camera/ crash cam (and there is no way in the world we would shoot magic lantern RAW). But the BMCC has a killer Alexa-esque image and DOES match flawlessly with both the Alexa and Red One at 2K resolution. In fact the BMCC resolves a much cleaner and sharper image than the Red One MX at 2K. Quit fooling yourself mate.

Aliasing is easily avoided & I for one dont mind enjoying the full resolution of the sensor.

Well, its' not just me "telling myself that" it's every major film and television production across the world. No offense, but i think I'l rely on the "extensive testing" of top international DPs rather than yours. Maybe it met your standards, maybe your standards are not the same as mine. Only a complete noob would shoot Red at 2K. Why do that? (I'm not saying you do that, only referring to the fact that you mention 2K Red, which I have never actually used because yes, it's soft, obviously it is - so what?)

Something you don't understand is that aliasing is in every frame and affects every face you film - it makes everyones skin look either slightly or much worse. You can avoid much worse, but slightly is always there.

. Also, the BMC has a 3/4 inch sensor, which means it crops lenses. 4/3rds lenses are prosumer at best, so you end up using Canon lenses or PL lenses with a 2X crop factor. If that looks "good enough" to you - then, again, your standards and mine are very different.

Maybe you don;t mind "enjoying the full resolution of the sensor" but I'll bet your actresses if over 25 disagree with you, which is why every camera manufacturer in the world uses an OLPF. You really think BM doesn't because they are smarter than everybody else, smarter than Arri, Canon, Sony Red... and not just because they want to cheap-out on production costs? Really?

You're the one who's kidding yourself. Your $1999 BM camera does not look as good as any of the four Red camera models or any of the Alexa models no matter what Phillip Bloom says. There is no free lunch no matter how much you may want there to be.

Yes, people make images, not cameras, but there is a limit to what anyone can do with poor tools. Even Roger Deakins could not make a VHS camera from 1983 look like Imax. That is a much more extreme example but you get my point. Besides, choosing good tools is part of a DP's job. A DP who makes good images with a shitty camera screwed up by choosing to work with a shitty camera, he failed at a portion of his job, which is not only framing and lighting, but tool choice.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I will try not to "poor gas on the fire" as this debate is getting really old. To me the black magic camera is really great. And there is a lot of situations where a small sensor that resolves a certain resolution is far superior to a larger sensor that resolves the same resolution. As mentioned here, crash cams and such do really well with a small sensor, keeping a linger dof etc. And for me the BM camera does hold up amazingly well, for some situations far better than our epic. And for a lot of things that I do I would be very happy to use a BM camera and if I get a suitable project that gives me enough reason I would buy one even if that would cost me quite a bit more than renting one, just because I think having one gives me more options and not only that it would give me far more knowledge around that camera, as of nowI mostly only worked with the pictures from it. And the pictures I came across so far very much holds up to be very clean (read no compression artifacts what so ever) 2k material that does not really need any downscaling to get a good pixel 1:1 quality.

I know the epic has a olpf that is good I think as the camera has more resolution then most can handle and losing some to get around Cmos debayer moare is a smart way to go. For a 2k camera Im not to sure thats what I want if I was in charge for making such camera I would probably do as BM and make it without and gain some resolution and sharpness and risk the moare on wide high stop shots.

The BM camera has a bunch of issues and it will probably not replace the main camera setup in any major blockbusters still its excellent for what it and for the price it's available, no doubt about that. And Yes with no doubt it really kicks reds, arri's and the other big guys ass, kind of like red did when they stepped into the ring... it suck that there will always come something new, does it not

 

[Adam Johnson]

Have you actually shot with a Blackmagic Cinema Camera? My Cooke 20-100 creates a SPECTACULAR image on my BMCC. Other filters can be put on a matte box of as well to soften the image. There are no artifacts are aliasing on skin.

it's OK we all have our "opinions" as to what looks good and what tool fits the budget, format, situation. I am a young DP/ Camera Op and have had the privledge to work alongside one of the greatest filmmakers/ geniuses in the world in Douglas Trumbull who has Academy Awards, including one for the development of Showscan. Oh, and he brought IMAX public...

Yes I am admittedly a nobody and dont mind that one bit... but I feel I have been well trained by the best and my filmmaker friends and colleagues I trust and work with know their craft well and like the image coming from the BMCC. But I don't need to prove anything to you. It's like Jim with Mr. Boyle on CML. Opinions are like ass holes...everyone has one.

I feel pretty good about shooting a feature film for a major television network with my chosen camera packages. What I say doesn't really matter much regardless...and we can agree to disagree. But I ask, what makes you an authority on Digital Cinema Cameras? What major projects have you worked on that helps establish this credibility?

There are lots of amazing DP's in the world, even ASC's that have shot projects on the BMCC.

In the end, we can simply agree to disagree