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Red Epic for Wildlife - how telephoto can you get?

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Pete Barden

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Hi guys,

I’m gearing up for an independent wildlife shoot next year for television broadcast and was hoping to buy the Epic-S as my A camera. I know we have no specs to go on as yet, but how would people rate the Epic-X versus say the Panasonic HDX900, (which we use at work) for shooting wildlife? I’d appreciate any advice anyone can give on the following:

1. I’m a bit confused about what the crop factor with the Epic is in certain modes because there seems to be several different acquisition options. The 900 I believe should have a crop factor of 3.93, which is ideal for me. Since a lot of the stuff I’d be shooting on a 900 would be at 720 50P, I would be happy to drop to that resolution with the Red if it will mean I can get more telephoto when I need to. So does anyone know what the crop factor would be in windowed mode on the Epic or cropping to 720P from 5K in Redcine-X?

2. If I’m shooting at 5K using the entire sensor and I want to do some major cropping in Redcine-X, is there a way to zoom in to my subject while filming to know that my distant subject is in focus?

3. I believe that shooting full frame will give me a shallower depth of field than the 900’s 2/3” sensor. Focus with moving wildlife can be a bugger so is there an easy way to compensate with a full frame sensor. For example, as there is more light hitting a full frame sensor can I just stop down with the Epic and achieve similar results to the 900? And would this mean I wouldn’t need as fast lenses (planning on using Canon or Nikon stills lenses).

4. Anything else anyone thinks I’m missing?

I would be loathe to buy a 900 because a) it’s large form factor won’t be great for the work I’m doing next year b) it’s features are poor when you compare it to a Red e.g. high frame rates, HDRX and the potential for higher resolution c) Cost of DVCPRO HD tape deck/tapes/breakout box etc and cost of camera makes it feel like less value for money these days. I have looked at a setup with an EX3, using Nikon stills lenses and a nanoflash. The only thing I would be concerned about with that setup is rolling shutter and the lack of higher framerates that the Red cameras provide. Filming birds at 120FPS or thereabouts on the new Reds is a big draw for me.

So I guess overall do people think a full-frame Red is a viable option for me or am I being unrealistic and should I go for a smaller sensor camera? Any feedback much appreciated.

Best,

Pete
 
It would seem that a smaller sensor camera (2/3 or S16) would be ideal for wildlife. The problem with shooting for hours and hours on the Epic is data, you will create tons of it that you may not use. The Scarlet will be more efficient, have greater depth of field, etc. be here (on this form) nov. 3rd. To learn everything you can about the Scarlet. That said, you can just use the Epic in 2K mode for wildlife, and you have a S35 camera available for other projects.

My 2 cents
 
Pete, the Epic X would be wonderful for wildlife shooting. It's form factor is tiny, almost like an afterthought sitting on the back of long telephoto lenses. Shooting in 5K would work well for you and yes there is a method to check focus using the 1:1 magnification, which at present is not enabled. It's one of my favorite features of my R1. What I'm doing right now is briefly changing to 2K to check focus and switching back, similar effect. Pushing in in post is one of the great benefits of the RED.
 
Thanks very much for the replies. Am I right in thinking the 1:1 magnification mode is only enabled when not recording and turns itself as soon as you hit record?
 
Mark Andersen said:
Mark, I do 1:1 magnification all the time on my Epic X. Its certainly enabled. It is possible you have that feature turned off on your camera?
Click to expand...

Well the user buttons were not enabled, so I tried to set them up but it didn't work. Any suggestions? I really could use it!
 
sorry that should have said:

Am I right in thinking the 1:1 magnification mode is only enabled when not recording and turns itself off as soon as you hit record?
 
DOH! Mark, I was trying to use the User A and User B on the front of the camera body under the record button. Completely forgot about the LCD buttons. Yep, right there, if it were a snake...

Works great, sure wish I had used it on my first shoot, would have saved me a LOT of fumbling around. Sigh. Learning a new camera is always an adventure.

Pete, you are correct.
 
1:1 magnification is enabled, but not during recording.

There is a line in the Epic firmware upgrade notes that says "Image Magnify is available during preview, but not during recording." This leads me to think that at some point, it will be possible to zoom in 1:1 whilst recording.

Another important feature for wildlife (and all documentary) would be pre-roll, which doesn't currently feature on the Epic. I haven't heard any official word on this, but I'm hoping that this feature does appear.

The Epic can definitely be set up to do great wildlife shooting. I think the Canon mount and a bunch of Canon telephoto lenses would be the perfect setup.
 
Pete,
What kind of wildlife? A cheetah chasing a gazelle with the erratic movements will pose tough challenges for manual focusing with large sensor cameras. However, the high resolution of Epic and the 300fps is mouth watering.

I have not shot in Epic so can't say how hard it is to focus in such situations. The action sequences will be awesome with such high frame rates. And more importantly, shooting at this specs will be future proof for quiet some time. So to I would not suggest 720P as most of the channels are likely to move away from it in a year or so. However, you should check with your target channel is ok. In wildlife, that is more important. Also, if you get the Epic Canon mount, then you can use Canon telephoto lenses with the Epic.

I am in the planning stage for a wildlife feature, however, the cost of Epic is still high for me at this moment and I would need a complete package at one go. I still have enough time to decide. Wait for Nov. 3 to see the announcement from RED about Scarlet and waiting time.

Canon has got some great stuff linedup for Nov. 3rd. Their 2/3 camera will fit your needs perfectly and will be cheaper. Scarlet may give higher resolution, however better not to speculate about Scarlet and wait till Nov. 3/Nov 4th depending on location.
 
Good point about pre-roll. That could be an issue.

The lack of close-up focus monitoring does worry me slightly. Unless perhaps I'd be best off just shooting in 2k windowed mode when I need to get really telephoto and that way it will be much better for monitoring focus. I'm still struggling to get my head round the crop factor of the Epic. Does anyone know what the crop would be in 2k mode?

Agreed, about the Canon lenses. Would be great. I've got the Canon 2x extender and the 100-400L at the moment so am hoping that I'll be able to get some use out of them as yet.

Yes, the shallow DOF is something else I'm concerned about. I'm going to be filming a lot of birds in flight: eagles and also smaller mammals perhaps a foot to two foot long. I'm expecting some erratic movement. Is it just a case of stopping down more with the Epic than you would on say a 2/3 camera so that you don't have as shallower DOF in these circumstances? Would I be right in thinking that the sensor would be more sensitive to light than a 2/3s and therefore you could afford to lose a few stops with similar results or is that wishful thinking?

Yes, fingers crossed that a 2/3" interchangeable is still coming. Ideal for us docs people.

thanks,

Pete
 
Also, yes that's true about 720P and I know there's more pressure to shoot 1080P these days, but at the moment there doesn't seem to be a great choice of 2/3" cameras that will do 1080 50P for wildlife and we shoot a lot of stuff at 50P for Discovery, especially birds in flight. I would only be willing to drop to 720P for a close-up if I had to, but at the moment if you spent £20k on a HDX900 the best you could get would be 720 50P for offspeed footage. So I guess if I had to drop to 720 every now and then it hopefully wouldn't be a major deal.
 
I don't know the exact crop factor in 2k. I think the sensor itself is a 1.3x crop.

When you go to 2k, you're actually cropping the sensor itself, so to get an idea of the crop factor load up a 5k r3d and put a 2k crop on it and that's the difference. There are test r3ds around the forums.
 
Great, thanks. Reading about I'm getting the impression that in 2K windowed mode it is roughly equiv. to the sensor size of a 16mm camera, so presumably similar to a 2/3". Sounds promising.
 
Pete you are right on this, but be aware that the only 2K aspect ratio currently enabled is 2.4:1, so cropping for 16:9 will bring it down to well below 2K.
'Magnify' function does indeed turn off during record, but it is a very useful focus tool.
'Pre-roll' would be great for wildlife, but I haven't seen an announcement that means we'll be getting it anytime soon for the Epic.
I've been shooting the Epic-M with wildlife in Kenya for the past few weeks and love the system - there are still a few issues for us to work through, but they are mainly concerned with the volume of data we generate and the difficulty we have with getting adequate power in the bush...
 
I find that past 1200mm (FF35), or 1800mm when on the Epic, gets a little hairy in terms of atmospheric distortion. Unless you are shooting in extremely pollution free or cold weather that is.

I'm a prime guy myself, but there's a new Canon zoom (200-400mm f/4L IS) that's on it's way next year. Another great birding lens is the Sigma 300-800mm. It's big though.
 
Mark Deeble said:
Pete you are right on this, but be aware that the only 2K aspect ratio currently enabled is 2.4:1, so cropping for 16:9 will bring it down to well below 2K.
'Magnify' function does indeed turn off during record, but it is a very useful focus tool.
'Pre-roll' would be great for wildlife, but I haven't seen an announcement that means we'll be getting it anytime soon for the Epic.
I've been shooting the Epic-M with wildlife in Kenya for the past few weeks and love the system - there are still a few issues for us to work through, but they are mainly concerned with the volume of data we generate and the difficulty we have with getting adequate power in the bush...
Click to expand...

Hi Mark,
Good to hear that you are having a great time with the Epic shooting wildlife. I am excited to hear that there is a Pre-roll function in Epic like my Sound Devices sound recorder. How long is that pre-roll in Epic? (once it is turned on). Are you using solar chargers in the bush? I have something in the planning stage where I have to stay and shoot mostly from a boat and hence wondering about the powering options.


Phil Holland said:
I find that past 1200mm (FF35), or 1800mm when on the Epic, gets a little hairy in terms of atmospheric distortion. Unless you are shooting in extremely pollution free or cold weather that is.

I'm a prime guy myself, but there's a new Canon zoom (200-400mm f/4L IS) that's on it's way next year. Another great birding lens is the Sigma 300-800mm. It's big though.
Click to expand...

Hi Phil,
How are you getting 1800 mm?

I use a Canon EF 400mm f2.8 L IS USM lens with 2x II TC and the sharpness is great. Like you, I am also waiting for the 200-400 f4 L IS USM lens with a built in 1.4x TC. It would cover a good range without changing lenses.

Cheers,
Sabyasachi
 
Hi Sabyasachi

There is no pre-roll function on the Epic yet - but it would be invaluable for wildlife and I know that there are many who would love to see it enabled in a future firmware update :)

We will be using solar panels and batteries, but the batteries we want aren't available here at present. The batteries are heavy and I reckon to charge, back-up etc, even in a pretty lightweight configuration we will need c 500Ah storage. When you add panels and cases, controllers, stands etc to that - you have half filled a Land Rover :(. In the present wet season we have been at least a week at a time without sun - so we also need a back-up.
At the moment we are running off petrol generators ( 600 and 2.5 Kva) - running for c. 6 hrs a day. Not a perfect solution as it means space we would normally have for bringing in water, gets reassigned to petrol - and I am not keen on flying with a plane-load of leaking jerry-cans.
The 600W generator is a Honda 4 stroke, made in India - and reliable and economical - we have used one on most of our films and they generally last us about 2 years.
If you are on a boat and weight isn't an issue, then you could go solar but also take a high powered charger ( c 30A +) that would allow you to charge your solar lead acids when/if you can get power off the main engine ( assuming the boat has an engine).
I hate to rely on a single source of power to charge in the bush and if possible, always take a small generator for those rainy, windless days in the wet season, when the wildlife hasn't read the script and everything suddenly starts to happen!
 
That's interesting what you say about the lack of 16:9 2K. I've noticed a contradiction between the Epic manual and the tech specs posted at:

http://www.red.com/products/epic#product-tech-specs

On the website it says that the acquisition formats are:

5K RAW (Full Frame, 2:1, 2.4:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
4.5K RAW (2.4:1)
4K RAW (16:9, HD, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
3K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
2K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
1080p RGB (16:9)
720p RGB (16:9)

While in the manual it says they are:

5K RAW (Full Frame, 2:1, ANA, WS)
4K RAW (HD)
2K RAW (2.4:1)

Can anyone enlighten the situation here?

Thanks,

Pete
 
Pete, I think the difference lies in what is currently available and what will be available - i.e. enabled in future firmware updates.
For wildlife I love the present high speed capability of 300fps at 2.4:1, but I'll love it more when we get 3K and 2K 2:1 and 16:9 :)
 
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