RED - DSLRs and where the market is heading.

[Tomasz Gwincinski]

Enables 50Mbit 1080p MJPEG at native 24p (or 25p), plus a few other goodies.
For DSLR video shooters, this is a big deal.

There will be a lot of stuff like that next year.
So, I agree with Piotr Ryczko. I am just a poor artist. Epic is out of my range. I was waiting for Scarlet Fixed, as a solution for my works. I think for many people like me that was a big deal. But now RED has changed, they offer EPIC, so, I am asking who's gonna buy it? How many artist around the world got 30K? (not mention people here in Eastern Europe, for us 5K is a challenge)
It is sad to say but I think Scarlets' time expired (quotation).

 

[Vladimir Cassel]

No release date on any of the cameras , yet

scarlet will come after epic

i doubt it will be a hinderance unless you need extremely shallow dof to look professional ... it should be great for low budget films with its form factor and weight you will be able to use DSLR rigs like zacuto

and that will save you plenty compared to film alone

you wont have to have a rocket card but a mac pro at least is recommended by many

i believe scarlet fixed is $2700 for a kit so no need to buy lots of modules

thats very comparable to the 5d mark ii but the gh1 is half that

I have a Lenovo W700ds laptop I was kinda forced to get at my last school (Computer Animation) so I could fast real-time performance and renders out of Maya. It's quad core, 8 GB or RAM, and has a Quadro FX video card. It even has a cool little extra screen that pops out of the main screen. I hope it's good enough to handle Scarlet; I paid an arm and a leg for it and I'm still paying!

 

[Leo Ticheli]

Vladimir, would you consider starting a separate thread to discuss your concerns?

This thread was throwing some light on important issues concerning the impact DSLR cameras are making and where the market is heading until it drifted off course.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[David Rasberry]

That GH1 looks great! It might be worth it for me to wait another paycheck and get that over the T2i.

But guys, I'm starting to wonder about the Scarlet. It's so tempting to wait to get the next better thing and then the next. I wonder if it's worth holding out on the 2/3" Scarlet Fixed. I know this probably isn't the right place to load up on questions like this, but as a noob, I hope you'll forgive me.

My main questions on it: do you see anyway the fixed lens might turn out to become a hindrence to me in my quest for professional looking visual narrative? Would I need a Red Rocket card to get things going into my computer at home? Finally, what's the expected release date?

It's a beautiful camera to be sure, and an ingenious idea. I just wonder if I can find someway to afford it without prompting my GF to leave me. Where there's a will there's a way, I suppose!

I'm waiting for Scarlet 2/3", but I am specifically interested in a true digital replacement for a 16mm film camera. Scarlet will take every penny I can save to fit out, so nothing left over for one of the DSLR's and I don't really need another still camera. No compelling need to get something now.

 

[James Brundige]

Accidental mk 5 owner

Accidental mk 5 owner

I'll say it again...

Red is the new Digital Film.

HDSLR is the new MiniDV.

I agree as far as image quality goes, but the Canons are all over the place now. I finally got one, because I've got a really remote shoot coming before my Epic might arrive. I hate the look of it, and the workflow, but I love the weight and low profile in customs.

And I have to observe that some folks are getting broadcastable stuff out of them. (as long as there's no snow in the frame - the whites are just horrible).

With the pathetic sound and awkward user interface, I don't think these will take over pro applications, but they will surely be the darling of starving beginners. I was assuming I'd get a Scarlet for a B-cam (and I probably still will), but it's become more of a horse race than I originally thought.

Hopefully Red's RAW workflow will be perfected by the time the DSLR bigs come out with a raw format. And for heating reasons, I suspect the DSLRs with RAW won't be that much smaller or cheaper than Scarlet. Interesting times.

 

[Elsie N]

Hopefully Red's RAW workflow will be perfected by the time the DSLR bigs come out with a raw format.

I wonder if this won't be the Great Separator? RED seems to be the only company that I'm aware of that is developing a complete system. That is, you can work entirely within the RED products (eventually) and accomplish just about anything you want to do with visual capture, edit and display. Third parties are allowed, but the RED system when put in place will not be dependent on a third party to get a job done and done well.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Perhaps a regular DSLR user can correct me. But am I reading this correct -

The GH1 firmware makes it a better video camera than 5D Mk. II? It is not line skipping? I am not sure what is going on here. This seems too good to be true.

 

[Alessio G.]

On a sub 5K price, frankly, I find what's coming next on dslr more enticing than the 2/3 scarlet. (not working as ENG videographer etc...)

Of course the S S35 is a totally different story. It's like my dream cam. As of now...

 

[Erik Franzén]

Perhaps a regular DSLR user can correct me. But am I reading this correct -

The GH1 firmware makes it a better video camera than 5D Mk. II? It is not line skipping? I am not sure what is going on here. This seems too good to be true.

For the record, the GH1 was never line skipping. Instead, it was pixel binning. That's one of the reasons why you are seeing such massive improvements (since there is no fundamental flaw in the design or the hardware, but there were significant amounts of crippling in the firmware).

To be fair, it's not a "better video camera than 5D Mk. II" - they're about equal, or the GH1 has a slight edge. The big thing for people like me though is the complete removal of the muddiness it always had when movement was present and the fact that GH1 doesn't alias! That makes it "good enough" until the Scarlet bomb drops. :smash:
Or, well, not "alias" in the way the 5D/7D does...

 

[David Rasberry]

Hopefully Red's RAW workflow will be perfected by the time the DSLR bigs come out with a raw format. And for heating reasons, I suspect the DSLRs with RAW won't be that much smaller or cheaper than Scarlet. Interesting times.

The difference in power consumption gives a good indication of the difference in processing power needed. DSLR's consume around 10 watts, 3-chip video cams run 12-15 watts. Epic reportedly draws about 60 watts.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Here's a zone plate from the GH1 in 1080p mode (not hacked) http://www.nattress.com/Panny GH1.jpg

You can see low horizontal resolution (about 1.4k) and more significant aliasing vertically with some false colouring, which may be indicative of line skipping or other similar short-cuts. There are also periodic horizontal bands in the image, which may indicate that the 1080p image is created from an smaller image by upsampling vertically.

Graeme

 

[James Brundige]

The difference in power consumption gives a good indication of the difference in processing power needed. DSLR's consume around 10 watts, 3-chip video cams run 12-15 watts. Epic reportedly draws about 60 watts.

Thanks, David. I wish there was more solid information like this on the forum here. There are 100 charts about sensor size. I'd love to see factual comparatives about bandwidth requirements, storage, and power consumption.

 

[David Rasberry]

Here's a zone plate from the GH1 in 1080p mode (not hacked) http://www.nattress.com/Panny GH1.jpg

You can see low horizontal resolution (about 1.4k) and more significant aliasing vertically with some false colouring, which may be indicative of line skipping or other similar short-cuts. There are also periodic horizontal bands in the image, which may indicate that the 1080p image is created from an smaller image of approximately 720 lines.

Graeme

How about pulling a quickie one of those off the Scarlet 2/3" proto for us eh? :sifone:

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Canon too

Canon too

Perhaps a regular DSLR user can correct me. But am I reading this correct -

The GH1 firmware makes it a better video camera than 5D Mk. II? It is not line skipping? I am not sure what is going on here. This seems too good to be true.

And what's holding Canon from binning pixels?
I'm pretty sure they're doing it already. These cameras will only get better. Canon's army of engineers sitting on their hands? I don't think so...:emote_popcorn:

 

[James Brundige]

Here's a zone plate from the GH1 in 1080p mode (not hacked) http://www.nattress.com/Panny GH1.jpg

You can see low horizontal resolution (about 1.4k) and more significant aliasing vertically with some false colouring, which may be indicative of line skipping or other similar short-cuts. There are also periodic horizontal bands in the image, which may indicate that the 1080p image is created from an smaller image by upsampling vertically.

Graeme

Graeme, can you explain what I have clearly observed - that the Canon whites lose detail. Is it a DR thing?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

If you see lack of detail in highlights, it's usually a DR thing, yes.

In a combined stills / motion camera, you need to be able to read out all the pixels for stills - that's a given. But for video, it is very expensive (in power, space, weight & price) to read out ever pixel for every frame at a high frame rate. As to why Canon don't do that it's because of the power it takes, the space it would take up for extra circuitry and chips, the weight it would take and the inevitable price increase that would make it a very hard sell for it's primary use as a stills camera. Not least they'd need a new chip design that would be able to cope with the much higher readout speed necessary.

Everything costs. But the price dynamic is very different if you set out to build the best motion camera available, which incidentally shoots stills in that same high quality, than if you try to make a top-end stills camera that can shoot video with the same quality as the stills.

Graeme

 

[Jay Gannon]

Here's a zone plate from the GH1 in 1080p mode (not hacked) http://www.nattress.com/Panny GH1.jpg

You can see low horizontal resolution (about 1.4k) and more significant aliasing vertically with some false colouring, which may be indicative of line skipping or other similar short-cuts. There are also periodic horizontal bands in the image, which may indicate that the 1080p image is created from an smaller image by upsampling vertically.

Graeme

The hack entirely rewrites the method that the sensor is read with from line skipping to pixel binning, its not ideal still but a lot of the chroma ailiasing is gone and moire is very difficult to produce now, its a tiny camera that can easily be PL mounted. Great crash cam or POV camera.

 

[Vladimir Cassel]

Everything costs. But the price dynamic is very different if you set out to build the best motion camera available, which incidentally shoots stills in that same high quality, than if you try to make a top-end stills camera that can shoot video with the same quality as the stills.

Graeme

That makes a lot of sense. I didn't mean to say the Scarlet is expensive. Actually it's quite inexpensive for what you get. Just that what makes the DSLR market so appealing for students like me is that it's very attainable without driving ourselves homeless. But I'm going to try working the angles on the budget a bit more and see if I can't hold off for a while. I've lasted this long. At least I have FrameForge to play with until then.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Well, someone should really get to the bottom of this new GH1 hack. If a firmware is enough to change a line skipping sensor to binning, then needless to say, something fishy is going on here. It is possible that the GH1 was never line skipping in first place, but Graeme's zone plate clearly shows line skipping artifacts, though maybe it might be something resembling them. I would certainly like to see some detailed tests done on the hacked GH1.

Apparently the latest version is recording 4:2:2 MJPEG.

Yes, all of this is firmly in the "too good to be true" category. But I certainly would be delighted if it were.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

What I'd need to see would be a comparison before / after zone plate.

Graeme