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Red Dragon - Shoot at 4k or 6K & Upload footage at 1080 or 4k ---->Youtube vs Vimeo

Tim Morris

Tim Morris

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Red Dragon - Shoot at 4k or 6K & Upload footage at 1080 or 4k ---->Youtube vs Vimeo

Guys,

I am currently working on a project here in Chicago and it's a short 10 minute piece. I will be operating the B Camera and the DP will be operating the A Camera. The team has been afforded the opportunity to have 2 Dragons on set.... as well as a full production team. Myself and the DP were discussing the pros and cons of shooting in 4k vs 6k with 2 Dragons. The DP wants to shoot in 4k and he stated that its crazy to shoot in 6K. We also had a conversation regarding Native ISO for the RED dragon.

I like to hear your thoughts regarding the above-mentioned........both the pros and cons........My thinking is shoot everything in 6k and downscale it in postproduction.

I bought my first Scarlet last Summer and I later upgraded to the Epic. As of last week, I sent my Epic in and I am waiting on my Dragon t. With each camera, I have personally seen progress and I strongly suggest that we take advantage of the 6k sensor for what its worth. I shot with a Dragon for a brief second and the resolution, colors and low light capabilities are amazing. With respect to Native ISO....my understanding is that this is the starting point by which you set the camera.....................before noise comes into the scenario.

Please comment........ as I would like to here from other redusers.

Thx
Tim
 
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You could also shoot in 5K and downrez to 4K, and that would still give you some adjustment room in post. Get the post people into the discussion and find out what the delivery aspect ratio will be, and what your options are. And be sure to shoot color charts and framing charts -- preferably color charts at the beginning of each lighting setup. And do a workflow test if at all possible.
 
Downscaling makes the image look better, and 6K gives you a bit more room to stabilize and crop. However, is your DP set on filming as-is and not tweaking the footage in post? That may be why (s)he is going for 4K aside from space-saving.

Native ISO - maybe you can instead talk about "rated ISO" - for STH OLPFs, it falls around 320 ISO, and for the LLO ISO, it's rated at 800 but can be pushed to 2000 typically without distracting noise.

I'm here in Chicago as well and am definitely down to meet up if you want to go through anything!
 
Thanks for the responses.....I agree with you both.

@ Marc....I see that you are a colorist. Are you using Davinci Resolve. Please PM as I would like to talk further.

@ Brenden.....its definitely good to know other RED owners that are in the Chicago-land area. I have attached my contact information below.....and in the near future, we should definitely get an opportunity to meet.

Tim Morris
gsugraduate@yahoo.com
3128230591
 
You have to ask what lenses are you shooting with. Many productions shoot at 5K or 5.5K resolution on Dragon for a 4K finish as 5K is essentially Super35 3-perf as a format and works well for the image circle on S35 lenses. 5.5K gives you a bit. 6K more than than.
 
In reponse to Phil......We are shooting with Zeiss CP2's...@ Akin...appreciate the Native ISO threads
 
How do people feel about shooting 4K at Redcode 3:1 versus 6k at Redcorde 5:1? Would the former offer any benefits in terms of dynamic range, color, noise, etc.?
 
Kevin Kwok said:
How do people feel about shooting 4K at Redcode 3:1 versus 6k at Redcorde 5:1? Would the former offer any benefits in terms of dynamic range, color, noise, etc.?
Click to expand...
Shooting 4K is just a 4K crop of the 6K sensor, so DR, color, noise would all be the same.
If you shoot 6K and then downscale that to 4K and compare it to something shot at 4K (with the same framing), the image quality of the 6K downscaled to 4K would look more detailed because more photosites were capturing that image originally. Also there would be less visible noise because some noise will have been discarded in the downscaling process.
 
Another consideration is that 6k will have a wider angle of view and therefore a seemingly shallower DoF with a given lens and aperture. Shooting 4k will allow the aperture to be a little more open and not give your AC a headache keeping focus. I find the noise very pleasant at 4k with low compression (5:1 or so).

Just an aside but, when people say the dragon can shoot 2000 iso clean, I think that at 6k 5:1 that's certainly true even with the skintone OLPF, but 5k 8:1 on the scarlet... not so much.
 
Hi Tim,

6K on dragon looks so much better than 4K, as Akin says, it is much softer and noisier, especially if you are delivering for 4K. I get the data issue though. See if you could rent two 4K broadcast modules cheaply then you have the best of both?

Craig Lees
ED UK
3dstories.co.uk
 
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Thanks for the information guys....my Dragon is actually schedule to be shipped out from RED today. Its going through the final imaging test. This has been a journey.....I inititially bought the Scarlet and upgraded to the Epic and now the Dragon.

One more quick question that I want to confirm...when you guys are shooting in 6k and downscaling...... are you dropping the 6K footage on a 4k timeline or 6k timeline in adobe premier and then uploading the footage to youtube in 4k.

Thanks in advance.
 
Tim Morris said:
Thanks for the information guys....my Dragon is actually schedule to be shipped out from RED today. Its going through the final imaging test. This has been a journey.....I inititially bought the Scarlet and upgraded to the Epic and now the Dragon.

One more quick question that I want to confirm...when you guys are shooting in 6k and downscaling...... are you dropping the 6K footage on a 4k timeline or 6k timeline in adobe premier and then uploading the footage to youtube in 4k.

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

If you drop a 6K image into a 4K timeline, and then do a 2:1 punch-in, you get 2K resolution stretched across 4K. If you do everything on a 6K timeline and then do a 2:1 punch-in, you get 3K resolution stretched across 4K. Do you ever need to punch in?
 
@ Michael......Thats a good question. I am curretnly working on 5k footage that I have dropped on a 5K timeline in premier...my thought was to take that 5K footage on that timeline and upload it to Youtube in 4k. Prior to owning a RED, I shot with a Mark III for years and the process was much easier. That being said, I am all ears as I want to make sure that I am doing things right. I know that Phil's "Its Just Paint" was shot in 6k and downscaled to 4k.......I wonder if that 6K footage was dropped on a 6k timeline and/or 4k timeline and later uploaded to youtube in 4K. @ Phil please feel free to elaborate!!!
 
Tim Morris said:
@ Michael......Thats a good question. I am curretnly working on 5k footage that I have dropped on a 5K timeline in premier...my thought was to take that 5K footage on that timeline and upload it to Youtube in 4k. Prior to owning a RED, I shot with a Mark III for years and the process was much easier. That being said, I am all ears as I want to make sure that I am doing things right. I know that Phil's "Its Just Paint" was shot in 6k and downscaled to 4k.......I wonder if that 6K footage was dropped on a 6k timeline and/or 4k timeline and later uploaded to youtube in 4K. @ Phil please feel free to elaborate!!!
Click to expand...

On that shoot I worked with native 6K WS Dragon .R3Ds in Adobe Premiere Pro, I think I made some minor first light adjustments in REDCINE-PRO and did the color/finish in DaVinci Resolve.

Just made a UHD 4K master at the time.

When working with material I typically either edit at the captured resolution or if it's a project with a lot of formats/resolutions I'll utilize a 4K timeline and scale within the timeline as needed. Just depends.
 
@ Phil....so with the Its Just Paint video......it was shot in 6K and you dropped it on a 6k timeline and then uploaded the project in 4k. I just got my Dragon back from RED...just trying to make sure that I get the proper setting when using youtube and even vimeo.......when I shoot 6k footage.
 
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Phil Holland said:
On that shoot I worked with native 6K WS Dragon .R3Ds in Adobe Premiere Pro, I think I made some minor first light adjustments in REDCINE-PRO and did the color/finish in DaVinci Resolve.

Just made a UHD 4K master at the time.

When working with material I typically either edit at the captured resolution or if it's a project with a lot of formats/resolutions I'll utilize a 4K timeline and scale within the timeline as needed. Just depends.
Click to expand...

I didn't think Adobe PP accepted 6k Dragon R3D's?
 
Using two Dragons and cropping into the sensor by more than 170% seems like it's not fully utilizing the image at your fingertips.

I understand the idea behind it, for sure, but the data isn't THAT much different in the end.

A 6K FF shot scaled down to UHD looks so much better than a 4K HD shot from the Dragon.
 
Even on corporate videos and pro bono work i shoot 6K. It just looks better.
Edit on a 1080p timeline and finish in Resolve (or any other colouring software) at any resolution you like, with punch ins available as a post production choice.

It's hard to image a DP that would insist on shooting at 4K unless either new to Red or he's planning to edit on his own mac laptop. Or both.
 
Appreciate the advice guys. Information was received. I must try this out when I complete my project before the final edit.
 
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