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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Compression and Matrix Tests.

Just checked out your movie, Graeme. Very nice. There is a "texture" to tube amps that is so pleasant to listen to. A lot of my voice talent people buy them to do their voice work.

Do you own a HD100? I sure hope you guys incorporate the HD100 style focus assist into Red. It's a feature these 50 year old eyes have come to depend on.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
It's a film v digital cinema thing, where it's a user-choice aesthetic. .

Graeme
Click to expand...

Graeme, I agree, the audio subject that we accidently stepped on belongs to the philosophical thread but film versus digital is the same type of social phenomenon that belongs here.
I think, once RED will be in production and in use by many, we will have religious wars like back then with audio digital technology.

Looking in to the past of film cinematography, all production, capture and display is optimized for the film. Digital guys will have long uphill battle, to fight. It just started.

All current technology out there is optimized for the film to please the audience. Also audiance did get used to to the feel and look of it.
As a mathematical minds we know that digital can do what film does and more but it takes time and political skills to convince the pros. We all have experience from audio wars so I think it will be easier to fight this one.
But the first we have to make transition easy by talking the film guys language, (no offence to 99% of this forum users) and we have to make it look and sound and fill like a film. Then only then, after pleasing the film pros, we can show the full potential of RED digital.

So the ultimate winner solution is to copy all the disadvantages of the film minus the wish list of the film pros.
That is why, I was monitoring 24p thread with high interest. First we deliver 24p then we make 60p or 120p look like 24p with downgrade algorithms. Then we show 24 in many mutations and enhancements not possible with film technology. After which, maybe, just maybe, some people will start to like silky smooth 60p or 120p look.

You understand this the best as a audiophile and still one of not many users of tube amps. That is why I think RED will succeed.

Andrew
 
No, I don't own an HD100 - I just borrowed it for a weekend, along with deck and monitor, from the local rental house as they needed someone to figure out the FCP workflow for them.

It's actually the HD100 focus assist, and how useless I found it, that made me invent the RED focus assist. In the Stereo Images video, I tried to do a nice pull focus, and I used the focus assist to help tell me when it was in focus and when it was not. However, even though I tried a number of times, when I reviewed the footage, I'd only got it "right" once. That's because, the coloured line that illuminates to show focus actually obscures the edge that you're trying to see whether it's in focus or not. And as the coloured line is binary - it's there or not there, it cannot show you how good your focus is.

So that's why we don't have a focus assist like the HD100, but the story of how it inspired something new.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
That's because, the coloured line that illuminates to show focus actually obscures the edge that you're trying to see whether it's in focus or not. And as the coloured line is binary - it's there or not there, it cannot show you how good your focus is.
Graeme
Click to expand...

As HD100 owner I have to agree.

Graeme Nattress said:
So that's why we don't have a focus assist like the HD100, but the story of how it inspired something new.
Graeme
Click to expand...

Graeme, your new Red focus assist has really got me excited.

I'm starting to picture a visual graph or a numerical readout mathematically defining how well in focus the image is.......?
 
You may think that, but I couldn't possible comment.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
However, I think >16bit is very useful for recording / mastering though to give you some "headroom".

Graeme
Click to expand...

Graeme,

the headroom is only one (important) thing why you want more than 16 bit in audio.

In an audio mixing situation (inside of a mixing desk) you have lots of signals going around that are very low: A loud hihat pushed back, bass slaps dialed down, etc.). And much more important: You often send very small amounts of signal to reverb processors, ambience, etc..
All those signals suffer from bit degrading just because they are so low. And if you ever boosted a low 16bit signal back to full blast you know how dreadfull they sound. But this signal goes to a reverb unit and colors the overall sound. Thats why you want at least 24bit inside a desk - and some good ones (and software like Logic) have internal 32 bit floating point.

*This* is why you want higher bit rate in audio.

And since no mixing or bussing goes on inside the Red, its perfectly fine with 24 bit inputs.

All the best,
Jochen
 
Policar said:
Just thinking:

Film's characteristic curve has about 8-10 stops (or whatever) of linear information, and a smooth roll-off at the highlights (and, with some stocks, also in the shadows.) I bet Red has more linear dynamic range than comperably fast (ISO 500, exposed as ISO 320) film stocks, it just lacks the smooth knee. (Personally I'm not a huge fan of shadow detail; I love the look of Michael Bay movies and (so far as film stocks go) nature photography using Velvia.)
Click to expand...

Hi,

I guess you have not shot any negative motion picture film recently! Depending on the emulsion you should expect results in the 12 - 15 stops range, Kodak have claims of upto 20 stops. Film response in more log than lin.

Stephen
 
At least I know it's going to be something new and helpful for focus assist! I don't want to have to push a button to blow up a section, I hope I can monitor those pull focuses. That being said, I've found the blue lines to be better than what else I've used so far so I'm really excited to see what you've come up with!
Could you comment IMpossibly?
 
I was excited about the magic blue line approach until I actually tried it myself, and was dissapointed. I think this new approach will be helpful and fun!

Graeme
 
Awesome. Helpful AND fun?
BTW, on your video, it looks like they're stressing you out. Ya gotta quit chewing your nails down to nubs. All that coding must take its toll.
 
I would let edge enhancer algorithm run in the background continuously.
Then I will constantly display CPU usage for this process in the EVF.
More edges to process and more time spent on this task, less focus there is.
In any image there will be sweet spot where the edge's enhance algorithm CPU utilization will bottom out. Then we could display it as a just raw number and also as a kind of depth finder graph used on the boats that scrolls constantly from left to right at different high beeping when you are on too shallow water:-)

Graeme is not talking and speculations are running wild........
 
Speculation is fun!

Ah stress.... Yes, that's me :-) And that video was made before I got silly busy :-) Was fun though.

Graeme
 
Sorry, but I'm under strict orders not to divulge the method or appearance of the focus assist. I thought the story of it's invention would be useful though. I actually used the HD100 test footage I shot for my little movie to develop the code, and it was nice to see that you could easily distinguish the failed from the perfect pull focus on my assist, something that I could not do in camera.

Graeme
 
We should take him out and get him silly drunk and then see how laconic he is.

Damn. Those hints just make me bite my OWN nails to the nubs.
 
It's going to cost you though as the scotch I drink isn't cheap :-) Looking forwards to meeting you all at NAB though.

Graeme
 
I like anticipation.
Scotch is good, and I am very close to Ottawa next week.
As a ex Montrealer of 22 years there, leaving in Washington DC now I know that it will take more then one bottle of this elixir......
And the deal is that you will not divulge the method or appearance, we well just exclude what you didn't do. I guess it will be long list.
Andrew
 
Graeme Nattress said:
It's going to cost you though as the scotch I drink isn't cheap :-) Looking forwards to meeting you all at NAB though.

Graeme
Click to expand...

I must have missed an earlier thread, as a fellow ex-pat, ( former glaswegian, now resident of Hollyweird ) what particular forms of uisce beatha
 are you especially fond of?

J
 
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