Red Cage or Big Magazine

[Poi Boy]

I shoot mostly commercials and in that arena, if the images are as good as what we have seen, it will be a very easy sell. I would also say that Knowing how to light is knowing how to light, no matter the medium. Certainly there are nuance differences between film and digital but no more so than say negative and reversal film (it ain't rocket science). I'm sure it will take a bit longer for red to be accepted in feature work but it is going to happen very quickly.
Aloha
-A

 

[Gordon Prince]

When I'm saying the best form factor will be my choice, I mean lightweight. As small as possible. And having the cage as the best option for a versatile use.

Agreed. This will be the best for everybody. There are different levels of filmmaking and movie makers.

 

[tj williams]

kylemallory: You got me, I am truly over analytic. I worry about the color of my shoe laces...I worry details to death so that my friends make jokes!
I hope a lot of the people on this forum read your post. Your discussion of preferred Dp skill sets is right on!!!

This perception that the knowledge of the digital work-flow is the most important aspect of Dp. work in a digital format, and that the ability to light is "not rocket science" which is so pervasive here is without much basis in the production world. I would have to answer that "mediocre lighting is not rocket science."


Poiboy: My point is not that you couldn't struggle through with a dice/mouse because I'm sure you are talented in this area, my point is why struggle?
A lot of my work is also commercials. and I agree the commercial directors will be easier to sell the camera to than features, just as this kinda "look" in a camera will not hurt in music videos.

Knowing what I want on my camera. I am making copys of some of the renderings to carry to NAB.
I hope some of these like the very light weight drilled and tapped top which the handle bolts onto in the rendering I referenced above, without red rod or cage is going to be made right away!

I have a coupla drawings done. I'm very interested in making accessories for the RED. I've already made some for ACL, HDCam, and Steadicam. I hope the RED folk will be open to allowing any of us who come up with accessories to post pictures on this site?

 

[Poi Boy]

I never suggested that knowledge of the work flow was the the most important aspect of DP work, it clearly is not. I just don't really see a struggle coming with the red form. As far as the lighting thing goes, you either can or you can't and it doesn't have anything to do with looking at a monitor or not looking at a monitor.
Aloha
-A

 

[tj williams]

You and I both used the term "rocket science" which is why I suppose you felt the comment was about you? maybe I used it because I'd read your post? my paragraph was a general comment not aimed at you. It's probably partly because this forum is about a digital camera and workflow.

it doesn't have anything to do with looking at a monitor or not looking at a monitor.

I can't quite agree with you. To light film you can't really use a monitor since monitors won't show what you will get. Generally those who have lit only video, are a little freaked out when they don't have a monitor. Just lighting fm the meter and eye is in my opinion a bit harder.

 

[Stephen Williams]

You and I both used the term "rocket science" which is why I suppose you felt the comment was about you? maybe I used it because I'd read your post? my paragraph was a general comment not aimed at you. It's probably partly because this forum is about a digital camera and workflow.



I can't quite agree with you. To light film you can't really use a monitor since monitors won't show what you will get. Generally those who have lit only video, are a little freaked out when they don't have a monitor. Just lighting fm the meter and eye is in my opinion a bit harder.

Hi,

I have seen many Video DP's adjust the contrast of the monitor to make there lighting look better!

Stephen

 

[Poi Boy]

TJ, like I said, you can either light or you can't. When I say looking at the monitor has nothing to do with it I thought you would understand that meant using your eye and a meter. I'm old like you and still use my eye and a meter but in fairness to the monitor guys, when you are working on a feature you see results pretty regularly, often enough that you know what you are getting not to mention the fudge latitude you have with neg film.
Aloha
-A

 

[Don King]

Agreed. This will be the best for everybody. There are different levels of filmmaking and movie makers.

Same viewpoint here. There's no a Red user type but several kinds of them.

 

[tj williams]

poiboy.....so I looked up the user world and you are not in Hawaii.... I wondered and I thought we might have mutual friends? Welina mai...

 

[Roberto B]

When I'm saying the best form factor will be my choice, I mean lightweight. As small as possible. And having the cage as the best option for a versatile use.

:mail1:

 

[SF Geek]

I'm sorry. I guess I'm still not getting it. Why is the cage the best choice?

 

[Joel Kaye]

I'm sorry. I guess I'm still not getting it. Why is the cage the best choice?

The cage is simply A choice. There will be several choices. Rod support w/o the cage is already out there from a number of 3rd parties.

Everyone is going to have to figure out their own "best choice" for themselves... and that'll probably happen sometime after we can actually TRY this stuff. :biggrin:

 

[Chris Kenny]

I'd expect most indie filmmakers on a tight budget to just get the rail system, and possibly add the cage later, if they find they have a specific need for it. (From the photo tour, it looks like the rail system can be used with or without the cage.)

 

[Zk2007]

When portable broadcast video cameras first came out they cabled off to a video deck with a nice thick cable. It took a second crew member to carry the deck around. Mounted on a dolly for spot production the portable deck had to be extension wired to the dolly from a deck operators position. Often we had to have an extra grip to just manage the cables from the dolly. When one piece camcorders, and wireless video came out, most of us old guys thought we had moved ahead technologically to the place we were with film origination.

To me moving to a system which extracts the highest levels of performance such as: Slo motion, longer record, and highest quality, by putting cables off to a second box doesn't appear to be a step forward in production convenience, to any great extent.

Rob: Heres a place I truly don't get it! What exactly, can be mounted to RED Cage that cannot be mounted to RED Rail?

Zakaree: I don't have a lunch box we drink Latte's here.

I disagree, Many established Film camera people do care what the camera looks like. When Sony, Dalsa, Panavision, etc. brought out their HD and digital cameras they tried to keep them familiar to people who had used film cameras. The accessories were film accessories. despite their technological and pricing limitations they have enjoyed some success.

Old camera people are freaked out enough by things like hard drive recording and windowed sensors, a bunch of the folk who will end up operating this camera will feel uncomfortable with many aspects of it. What these folks bring to the party is the ability to light, block, and move in beautiful and subtle ways. Those who buy REDs for rental houses will configure their cameras to try and make them acceptable to the established high volume production folk. I frankly can't imagine a film/HD rental house putting the RED cage on. Maybe I'm wrong about this any rental house guys?

I have brought up my RED reservation to several of my friends who are established camera dept. folk. When I talked about the technology of the camera they were very interested. When I mentioned the single sensor and the ability to use PL mount cinema lenses they were leaning forward in their chairs. When I showed them the pictures.........."That looks like Science Fiction" "That is F.. Weird" "what will production think if I order this" etc. etc. It seemed to me the pictures of the unit without the RED cage seem to be more acceptable.

Making established operators comfortable is part of the priority RED's management should feel if they want to dominate this market. This is going to be more important at this NAB than last year.

RED has demos at NAB: I would suggest that one be set up with body, extended tube, VF with Rod, On Wheels head with no cage or rails except the lower rails for the mag and battery in back, Light weight 15mm support on front with follow focus, (Fiz might be nice) and a well accepted mat box with eyebrow and siders.

My RED Camera will look as much like a film or cine-matized digital tape camera as I can make it! I'm already selling a new work-flow. I feel no need myself to wear a propeller beanie while doing it.

I gotta say, having read this thread over, it seems there is a conception that RED will sell itself. I think TJ is probably over-analyzing the situation, but he is fundamentally right.

It's a relatively easy thing to sell digital to a DP and to a lesser extent, even the director; that has happened over the last 5 years with HD cinema cameras, etc. But convincing the production company, and/or financing to risk workflow (ie, money) on a piece of alien technology is going to be a hard sell, a lot harder than I think a lot of people realize.

Given the choice between a RED DP and a ARRI DP, I'd take the ARRI DP in a heartbeat, because I know they have experience with a proven workflow. If you can light film, you can reasonably light anything. If you can light video.. well, you can light video. As a producer/director, I will hire a DP that knows the workflow I trust and am comfortable with. I would likely NEVER hire a DP, and then say, "Okay, great... go shoot on whatever you want..." He's going to have to convince me that RED can handle it.

I do think that the "look" of the package is secondary-- but there are perceptions about how that look translates to efficiency. If you start dragging cables across set, and having to hire cable wranglers, that is a problem... But if everything "looks" like it does (or a close facsimile thereof) on a film set, the director will be comfortable, the DP will be comfortable, the producer will be comfortable, and THAT is a good way to start a sale. Certainly if the camera can sell me on image quality, "future proofing" my footage, etc. those things will factor into my decision, more so than if it looks like a film camera or not, but I'm going to be more cautious about it. Whereas if it looks like what I'm used to, AND it does all that great other stuff too.. well, shit, all the better.. I'm sold!

The closer you can replicate a traditional production environment/workflow, the easier it will be to transition reluctant producers to the new RED workflow.


Kyle

I agree with that. There's the reason the Genesis, Dalsa and D20 look like film cameras. The result of this effort is that for example, with the Genesis, it is being very well accepted by industry pros (DOP's) and I'm talking ASC here, not independents, wedding or ENG folks. This acceptance by the film pros is what will dictate whatever a camera will be used for major motion pictures or not. Notice how no major motion picture has been shot with a Varicam? DOP’s just thought 720p was not good enough and completely ignored the other camera features like variable frame rates and went with the F900. One factor is enough to ditch a tool in this industry. Now if all RED wants is the independent moviemakers, wedding, corporate, and broadcast markets, go ahead and ignore the form factor and release an alien looking camera and look cool. But if they have any hopes of RED being well accepted in major studio pictures, making the camera more " industry friendly", familiar looking and compatible to industry standard accessories will do wonders. It’s easy to see that just by looking at the reaction to RED in the Cinematography.com forums where a lot of ASC and industry working people post. Whatever we want to accept it or not, the old school guys are still the ones calling the shots. Some years in the future will sure change that, but for now, you still have to please them. A new tool still needs to have a connection to the past. This is a transitional time. Ignoring that may not be such a good idea. Not having ignored that may be one of the reasons the Genesis is so well accepted. 22 feature films in a year, including major motion pictures with major Directors and staring major actors like Superman, Apocalypto, Flyboys, Déjà vu and Click is a pretty impressive acceptance for a new digital system in such a short time. Studio heads also need to be confortable with the choice and an alien looking technology is not exactly the kind of gamble they are looking for. The more familiar the better really.
Yes, I know Peter Jackson and Cameron are supposed to be on line for RED but they are Directors and not DOPs and I doubt these Directors would push their DOPs to use something they are not comfortable with because that would compromise their films. They are probably most likely getting it out of curiosity or for personal projects ala Rodriguez.
But then again, as William Goldman wisely put it once, when it comes to the industry of cinema, “Nobody knows anything”.
Having said all that, I am a RED reservation holder.

 

[Daniel Reichenbach]

I Now if all RED wants is the independent moviemakers, wedding, corporate, and broadcast markets, go ahead and ignore the form factor and release an alien looking camera and look cool. But if they have any hopes of RED being well accepted in major studio pictures, making the camera more " industry friendly", familiar looking and compatible to industry standard accessories will do wonders.

Hmm, never filmed a wedding, is this not one of the major themes in Hollywoodfilms? :innocent:

I do not understand all these worries about the question wether REDone is professional or not. Could be, that ASC-Guys fear there reputation if they should use a small camera without hundreds of boxes and, and... I think, RED has all important qualities of a professional film camera. I think, the most important thing what RED has to care about, is the sensor, the resolution, the flexibility. And the fact that the data amount can be stored anyhow on a hard disk or a kind of flashcard. DoPs should have inough imagination to understand why RED is a RED and not a Panavision. My advice: Let's wait until this camera is out - then there will be a lot of DoPs, directors, producers who would really like to shoot with this camera. And by the way: Wasn't there a time when people thought the earth is flat?

 

[Roberto B]

The cage is simply A choice. There will be several choices.

choices.. here's the key..

 

[tj williams]

When I started this thread I made a kind of blunder. By suggesting the choice of a RED RAID larger magazine. In my mind raids come in a variety of sizes and capacities. Thus what I had in mind was more like the 400ft mag 1000ft mag dichotomy. I did not envision a huge refrigerator size box on the back of the camera. I also agree with filmmatkers gang above. If you look at my posted thread "NAB 2007 The Dream booth" it will give a better idea of my sense of the various choices which I feel the basic camera body could include.

This thread was started because I felt frustrated by the way RED's forum site managers, and trade show managers, chose to show the camera, we have seen gun stocks cages rails, strange glows, etc. but never seen the body in any of the many renderings, set up as most pros. will set it up. Again I hope you will look at, what I think are the most popular choices on the NAB2007 thread.

In a sense I started this thread as a kind of market research for the RED mfg. team. When they begin building accessories, what should they build.
I had hope for a kind of consensus, or voting, or split opinion, as to how many of the initial adopters would prefer to order 1 or more larger magazines with perhaps double the capacity. and how many intend to order the cage?

 

[Brook Willard]

Many sizes, indeed. The RED DRIVE is technically a mini-RAID between two 160GB drives.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Many sizes, indeed. The RED DRIVE is technically a mini-RAID between two 160GB drives.

And we're all assuming they will hold to using 2.5" HDDs in the RED DRIVE, so capacities will increase along with the hard drives it's based on. Currently 200GB 2.5" drives are available, but they don't offer the same level of performance as the 160GB models as they have an additional platter, fewer heads per platter and a slower rotational speed. Newer perpendicular recording techniques are coming into play now. Some of the current drives like the 160GB models and some of the 120GB models use perpendicular recording, but next generation perpendicular will bring much higher capacities. There have been rumors and unofficial claims/speculation that we'll see 320GB 2.5" 7200rpm HDDs by the end of this year.

Also don't forget that 128GB and 256GB 2.5" HDD form-factor FLASH drives were demonstrated at CES a few weeks ago. The 128GB models are due to hit store shelves mid/late summer and 256GB as early as the end of this year if the market receives the 128GB models well and prices can be pushed down. If the FLASH based drives can meet manufacturer performance claims (or at least come close) then they'll have no trouble outperforming magnetic HDDs. And I'd gladly pay a bit more for 500GB RED DRIVE based on those.

I coudl also add that 3.5" HDDs could be used to construct the RED DRIVE and would give significantly larger storage capacities. But with the increased storage also comes increased size, weight and power requirements. It may not be practical. Powering 3.5" HDDs via battery isn't a very elegant solution -- I've seen it done with larger "notebook" (if you could still call them that) computers. It's not a pretty sight.

 

[Joel Kaye]

But if they have any hopes of RED being well accepted in major studio pictures

How many movies do all the studios make each year (100)? How many movies TOTAL get made every year (6000+ NOT including BOLLYWOOD)?

Red designers are bending over backwards to be as compatible as possible. These guys have built MANY user suggestions into the design.

The numbers really tell the tale: RED has already taken 1500 orders. The guesstimate of the total number of F-900's out there is about 2000. It's pretty hard to call that anything short of astonishing considering no one owns a RED yet.

If 10 ASC old timers want to wax skeptical on some other board that's great. Doesn't bother me for a millisecond.