Rob Lohman
Red Team
Red cage was designed to give you lots of mounting options (both where and how to mount the camera as well as to mount extra stuff to the 'camera').
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Red Cage or Big Magazine
- Thread starter tj williams
- Start date
Andrew M.
Well-known member
Don King, so how do you want to attach all the gears to it without the cage.
We are discussing the obvious here.....
We are discussing the obvious here.....
Zakaree Sandberg
Well-known member
Tj if you want the look of that huge ass magazine.. then strap your lunch box to your red.. at least it will serve some sort of purpose..
or in all seriousness since you mentioned cables running aorund.. then make a small box you can wrap all your cables up in neatly and connect that to the red cage.
people wont care what the camera looks like.. they want to see what it puts out. some people who want to "look" like they are shooting a movie might care.. but people who ARE shooting a movie wont
or in all seriousness since you mentioned cables running aorund.. then make a small box you can wrap all your cables up in neatly and connect that to the red cage.
people wont care what the camera looks like.. they want to see what it puts out. some people who want to "look" like they are shooting a movie might care.. but people who ARE shooting a movie wont
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- #45
Jeff Kilgroe
Well-known member
I don't think there is any reason to use it in post... The only reason to even capture uncompressed is to gain access to the higher frame rates and possibly the full 4.5K sensor area. If the internal processing of the camera could keep up with the load, compressing 4.5K output and the faster frame rates would be a REDCODE RAW/RGB record option. I'm assuming that the practical workflow for capturing uncompressed 4.5K or 4K @ 60fps, etc.. would be to then compress to REDCODE RAW or REDCODE RGB on an outboard system before taking it into post. I doubt anyone is going to want to or even need to work with uncompressed 900MB/s footage anytime soon.
- Thread starter
- #46
tj williams
Well-known member
Maybe I'm just stubborn?
Maybe I'm just stubborn?
When portable broadcast video cameras first came out they cabled off to a video deck with a nice thick cable. It took a second crew member to carry the deck around. Mounted on a dolly for spot production the portable deck had to be extension wired to the dolly from a deck operators position. Often we had to have an extra grip to just manage the cables from the dolly. When one piece camcorders, and wireless video came out, most of us old guys thought we had moved ahead technologically to the place we were with film origination.
To me moving to a system which extracts the highest levels of performance such as: Slo motion, longer record, and highest quality, by putting cables off to a second box doesn't appear to be a step forward in production convenience, to any great extent.
Rob: Heres a place I truly don't get it! What exactly, can be mounted to RED Cage that cannot be mounted to RED Rail?
Zakaree: I don't have a lunch box we drink Latte's here.
I disagree, Many established Film camera people do care what the camera looks like. When Sony, Dalsa, Panavision, etc. brought out their HD and digital cameras they tried to keep them familiar to people who had used film cameras. The accessories were film accessories. despite their technological and pricing limitations they have enjoyed some success.
Old camera people are freaked out enough by things like hard drive recording and windowed sensors, a bunch of the folk who will end up operating this camera will feel uncomfortable with many aspects of it. What these folks bring to the party is the ability to light, block, and move in beautiful and subtle ways. Those who buy REDs for rental houses will configure their cameras to try and make them acceptable to the established high volume production folk. I frankly can't imagine a film/HD rental house putting the RED cage on. Maybe I'm wrong about this any rental house guys?
I have brought up my RED reservation to several of my friends who are established camera dept. folk. When I talked about the technology of the camera they were very interested. When I mentioned the single sensor and the ability to use PL mount cinema lenses they were leaning forward in their chairs. When I showed them the pictures.........."That looks like Science Fiction" "That is F.. Weird" "what will production think if I order this" etc. etc. It seemed to me the pictures of the unit without the RED cage seem to be more acceptable.
Making established operators comfortable is part of the priority RED's management should feel if they want to dominate this market. This is going to be more important at this NAB than last year.
RED has demos at NAB: I would suggest that one be set up with body, extended tube, VF with Rod, On Wheels head with no cage or rails except the lower rails for the mag and battery in back, Light weight 15mm support on front with follow focus, (Fiz might be nice) and a well accepted mat box with eyebrow and siders.
My RED Camera will look as much like a film or cine-matized digital tape camera as I can make it! I'm already selling a new work-flow. I feel no need myself to wear a propeller beanie while doing it.
Maybe I'm just stubborn?
When portable broadcast video cameras first came out they cabled off to a video deck with a nice thick cable. It took a second crew member to carry the deck around. Mounted on a dolly for spot production the portable deck had to be extension wired to the dolly from a deck operators position. Often we had to have an extra grip to just manage the cables from the dolly. When one piece camcorders, and wireless video came out, most of us old guys thought we had moved ahead technologically to the place we were with film origination.
To me moving to a system which extracts the highest levels of performance such as: Slo motion, longer record, and highest quality, by putting cables off to a second box doesn't appear to be a step forward in production convenience, to any great extent.
Rob: Heres a place I truly don't get it! What exactly, can be mounted to RED Cage that cannot be mounted to RED Rail?
Zakaree: I don't have a lunch box we drink Latte's here.
I disagree, Many established Film camera people do care what the camera looks like. When Sony, Dalsa, Panavision, etc. brought out their HD and digital cameras they tried to keep them familiar to people who had used film cameras. The accessories were film accessories. despite their technological and pricing limitations they have enjoyed some success.
Old camera people are freaked out enough by things like hard drive recording and windowed sensors, a bunch of the folk who will end up operating this camera will feel uncomfortable with many aspects of it. What these folks bring to the party is the ability to light, block, and move in beautiful and subtle ways. Those who buy REDs for rental houses will configure their cameras to try and make them acceptable to the established high volume production folk. I frankly can't imagine a film/HD rental house putting the RED cage on. Maybe I'm wrong about this any rental house guys?
I have brought up my RED reservation to several of my friends who are established camera dept. folk. When I talked about the technology of the camera they were very interested. When I mentioned the single sensor and the ability to use PL mount cinema lenses they were leaning forward in their chairs. When I showed them the pictures.........."That looks like Science Fiction" "That is F.. Weird" "what will production think if I order this" etc. etc. It seemed to me the pictures of the unit without the RED cage seem to be more acceptable.
Making established operators comfortable is part of the priority RED's management should feel if they want to dominate this market. This is going to be more important at this NAB than last year.
RED has demos at NAB: I would suggest that one be set up with body, extended tube, VF with Rod, On Wheels head with no cage or rails except the lower rails for the mag and battery in back, Light weight 15mm support on front with follow focus, (Fiz might be nice) and a well accepted mat box with eyebrow and siders.
My RED Camera will look as much like a film or cine-matized digital tape camera as I can make it! I'm already selling a new work-flow. I feel no need myself to wear a propeller beanie while doing it.
Zakaree Sandberg
Well-known member
thats why red owners and operators will get the jobs on a red production.. no need to hire a panavision operator for a red camera if he will freak out because he isnt ok with it not looking like an arri or pana.
and plus.. think about this.. if your on location.. no specatators are gunna wanna stand by and watch and cough and have babies screaming if it looks like your pointing a bazooka or anti aircraft rocket launcer at an actor compared to if your aimin a sweet lookin pana at them..
and plus.. think about this.. if your on location.. no specatators are gunna wanna stand by and watch and cough and have babies screaming if it looks like your pointing a bazooka or anti aircraft rocket launcer at an actor compared to if your aimin a sweet lookin pana at them..
Antoine Baumann
Well-known member
I think RED Rail is for shoulder, and RED Cage is for tripod, crane, attached to bar, or anything you want. Red team wanted the RED Cage to have a lot of hole, that you can use to screw the cam to anything.
antoine
P Andersson
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why redesign, RED should stay with a more classic and comfy look
Andrew Benz
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No fair agwah! You picked the handheld version!
Poi Boy
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Wow ! so much concern about how the package looks or if the old guard will feel comfortable....whatever ! get over it, the images will do the talking.
Aloha
-A
Aloha
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- #52
I have to agree with TJ and Don King. I'm not sold on what the Red Cage is going to do for me. All camera AKS are made for a set of rods. Motor drives, matt boxes, follow focus, handheld stuff. I know I'm not going to want to have to mount on the Red Cage if i want to go from handheld to sticks. It seems that the uses for Red cage are more uncommon.
Although, now when I think about it, I might need the cage on the dummy side to protect the cables coming out of it.
Although, now when I think about it, I might need the cage on the dummy side to protect the cables coming out of it.
- Thread starter
- #53
tj williams
Well-known member
Agwah.... I think the small part further back, which is darker and has the crank on it, is the body all the scaffolding is called Edisonian Cage.
Zakaree: If it were only so, then the person with the best computer would get all the programming jobs.
Here's a nice pic of the dummy side of the RED fm the site:
http://red.com/images/photo_zoom/redone_14.jpg
The handle easily unbolts to undersling the camera on Steadicam. There are extra holes for transmitters etc down the top. The underside which is nowhere shown is assumed to have several 3/8 16 threaded holes for mounting sachtler plate etc. The vf is shown here mounted without the upper rails let alone the cage. It's nowhere shown but looks like some sort of sliding mount. It needs to be for hand held, as this mounting of the vf is pretty far back unless the operators neck is built funny. The rear red rail mounts not shown here seem to me necessary to hold the Battery and mag. Chrozeil will probably build a front adapter similiar to the Sony: (here's a link:
http://www.adorama.com/images/Product/ZOLWSUSO.JPG
Then presto my follow focus and matte box, of the film camera riding on the front. I still have a lot of extra place to bolt on the unforseen, whatever that may be.
Just trying to think outside the cage!
Zakaree: If it were only so, then the person with the best computer would get all the programming jobs.
Here's a nice pic of the dummy side of the RED fm the site:
http://red.com/images/photo_zoom/redone_14.jpg
The handle easily unbolts to undersling the camera on Steadicam. There are extra holes for transmitters etc down the top. The underside which is nowhere shown is assumed to have several 3/8 16 threaded holes for mounting sachtler plate etc. The vf is shown here mounted without the upper rails let alone the cage. It's nowhere shown but looks like some sort of sliding mount. It needs to be for hand held, as this mounting of the vf is pretty far back unless the operators neck is built funny. The rear red rail mounts not shown here seem to me necessary to hold the Battery and mag. Chrozeil will probably build a front adapter similiar to the Sony: (here's a link:
http://www.adorama.com/images/Product/ZOLWSUSO.JPG
Then presto my follow focus and matte box, of the film camera riding on the front. I still have a lot of extra place to bolt on the unforseen, whatever that may be.
Just trying to think outside the cage!
Cail Young
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You can directly mount front rails without using a plate adapter - both wide and narrow spacing.
Zakaree Sandberg
Well-known member
oh no i know.. im not saying if u have the best equipment u will get hired.. im just saying if you have experience with the red and are use to it.. then u will get a job over a guy who is use to an arri.. ( in camera operating positions)
but even in DP work.. there will be a change over from lighting a film set to lighting a 4k set.. so experience with the particular piece of equipment wins there too.. im not saying film dps wont adapt to 4k and learn it.. im just mainly talking in terms of whos use to what, and stating that a large magazine wont make or break the camera. :tongue:
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tj williams
Well-known member
Yes there will be a change, when you light a film set you have to know how it will look without seeing the image. When you light any electronic set you can see the monitor. I guess I don't see how that will be an advantage to you.
The guy who doesn't have to go back so much and look at the monitor will be faster all else being "equal"
SF Geek: Right angle connector sales are gonna go up in price and down in availablity!
cailong: So there is a way to have 60mm center 15mm rods at the correct distance below the lens mount center to mount light weight support accessories? Where did you find this?
PoiBoy: Imagine your mouse is shaped like a dice. Imagine your keyboard is bent up at the ends,
does this make you feel good?
Poi Boy
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TJ
If my mouse was shaped like dice and my keyboard was bent... I would still kick ass because I have talent, I would make it work. I think you are prematurely freaking out about a lot of the form issues that will get sorted out by the time red one ships, especially unit 1150. I have faith in the team and in the marketplace to come up with lots of options for this camera in fairly short order.
Also, how high end DPs feel about the looks of the rig could not matter less. If the camera performs the way most of us think it will, all naysayer concerns will melt away within a few months of delivery, the proof will be in the images.
Aloha
-A
If my mouse was shaped like dice and my keyboard was bent... I would still kick ass because I have talent, I would make it work. I think you are prematurely freaking out about a lot of the form issues that will get sorted out by the time red one ships, especially unit 1150. I have faith in the team and in the marketplace to come up with lots of options for this camera in fairly short order.
Also, how high end DPs feel about the looks of the rig could not matter less. If the camera performs the way most of us think it will, all naysayer concerns will melt away within a few months of delivery, the proof will be in the images.
Aloha
-A
I'm sorry but it seems I was actually misunderstood.
When I'm saying the best form factor will be my choice, I mean lightweight. As small as possible. And having the cage as the best option for a versatile use.
Cail Young
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Just my luck, I can't track down the render, but if you look at the renders on red.com you'll notice that there are 100mm spaced rods that directly attach to the camera - there's a special piece in one of the renders no longer on the website that slots onto 100mm spaced rods and provides 60mm rods; looks a bit like knuckledusters...
Kyle Mallory
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I gotta say, having read this thread over, it seems there is a conception that RED will sell itself. I think TJ is probably over-analyzing the situation, but he is fundamentally right.
It's a relatively easy thing to sell digital to a DP and to a lesser extent, even the director; that has happened over the last 5 years with HD cinema cameras, etc. But convincing the production company, and/or financing to risk workflow (ie, money) on a piece of alien technology is going to be a hard sell, a lot harder than I think a lot of people realize.
Given the choice between a RED DP and a ARRI DP, I'd take the ARRI DP in a heartbeat, because I know they have experience with a proven workflow. If you can light film, you can reasonably light anything. If you can light video.. well, you can light video. As a producer/director, I will hire a DP that knows the workflow I trust and am comfortable with. I would likely NEVER hire a DP, and then say, "Okay, great... go shoot on whatever you want..." He's going to have to convince me that RED can handle it.
I do think that the "look" of the package is secondary-- but there are perceptions about how that look translates to efficiency. If you start dragging cables across set, and having to hire cable wranglers, that is a problem... But if everything "looks" like it does (or a close facsimile thereof) on a film set, the director will be comfortable, the DP will be comfortable, the producer will be comfortable, and THAT is a good way to start a sale. Certainly if the camera can sell me on image quality, "future proofing" my footage, etc. those things will factor into my decision, more so than if it looks like a film camera or not, but I'm going to be more cautious about it. Whereas if it looks like what I'm used to, AND it does all that great other stuff too.. well, shit, all the better.. I'm sold!
The closer you can replicate a traditional production environment/workflow, the easier it will be to transition reluctant producers to the new RED workflow.
Kyle
It's a relatively easy thing to sell digital to a DP and to a lesser extent, even the director; that has happened over the last 5 years with HD cinema cameras, etc. But convincing the production company, and/or financing to risk workflow (ie, money) on a piece of alien technology is going to be a hard sell, a lot harder than I think a lot of people realize.
Given the choice between a RED DP and a ARRI DP, I'd take the ARRI DP in a heartbeat, because I know they have experience with a proven workflow. If you can light film, you can reasonably light anything. If you can light video.. well, you can light video. As a producer/director, I will hire a DP that knows the workflow I trust and am comfortable with. I would likely NEVER hire a DP, and then say, "Okay, great... go shoot on whatever you want..." He's going to have to convince me that RED can handle it.
I do think that the "look" of the package is secondary-- but there are perceptions about how that look translates to efficiency. If you start dragging cables across set, and having to hire cable wranglers, that is a problem... But if everything "looks" like it does (or a close facsimile thereof) on a film set, the director will be comfortable, the DP will be comfortable, the producer will be comfortable, and THAT is a good way to start a sale. Certainly if the camera can sell me on image quality, "future proofing" my footage, etc. those things will factor into my decision, more so than if it looks like a film camera or not, but I'm going to be more cautious about it. Whereas if it looks like what I'm used to, AND it does all that great other stuff too.. well, shit, all the better.. I'm sold!
The closer you can replicate a traditional production environment/workflow, the easier it will be to transition reluctant producers to the new RED workflow.
Kyle