RED Build 30 is a step backwards

[John Brawley]

WHY ?

Why did you ruin the metering system, one of the best things about the RED camera.

Now, I no longer can set a zebra at 100% and have it actually represent overexposure DURING a take when monitoring in REDcolour.

I have to watch the take in RAW (and so does everybody else) if I want it to work.

What the hell were you guys thinking when you took this GREAT feature away ? I need to know where the image is over exposing. I need to know while it's rolling. Now I can't.

Traffic Lights and Histograms don't show me WHERE it's clipping. Zebras overlay show me exactly WHAT is clipped, and I can make an informed decision about letting it go.

I don't want to hear about being re-educated with a new system. They don't work while you're shooting. They are no good for the director to look at on the split. I need exposure metering that works while I'm rolling and using redcolour.

Can anyone tell me how I can tell what's clipped during a take if using redcolour ? ? What happens if the sun comes out during a take ?

And false colour doesn't seem to work either...I can't make anything go red.

I understand some people don't get the distinction between RAW and other colour spaces like 709 or redcolour. I know you'll tell me 100% zebras in 709 doesn't indicate clipping because the RAW has more room.

But I used to be able to CHOOSE to monitor in RAW or 709, see the differences on rehearsal, and use it as a final safety check, knowing I had a few more percent at the top end for RAW.

Button 1 RAW / Redcolour / 709
Button 2 False Colour.

This means I can meter and quickly toggle RAW on and off. I can instantly see what's being lost in highlights and exposure skin tones in my sweet spot (which is using green)

Button 4 has Zebra 1 (usually set to 100-108%)
Button 5 has Zebra 2 (Usually set to 3%)

Now these are meaningless and only work when viewing RAW.

Please, bring back this ESSENTIAL tool. It's useless if I can't set it at 100%...in fact it's MISLEADING because it doesn't even come on even when the sensor IS clipped.

It's literally taking away an important feature (along with 709)

This has to be a mistake. I can't see any GOOD reason why you would take this away without giving me a better substitute.

jb

 

[Andrew M.]

John, can you use EVF and monitor at the same time on your shoots?

 

[John Brawley]

John, can you use EVF and monitor at the same time on your shoots?

Hi Andrew,

aren't they going to display the same thing ?

jb

 

[Graeme Nattress]

RAW False Colour mode works perfectly for these needs. It indicates true clip (no matter what the ISO, which the old system did not - it only worked for ISO320).

Graeme

 

[John Brawley]

RAW False Colour mode works perfectly for these needs. It indicates true clip (no matter what the ISO, which the old system did not - it only worked for ISO320).

Graeme

Except for when you're actually rolling and don't want to monitor in RAW.

And you don't want the director, continuity make up to watch the take going down in RAW...

jb

 

[Steve Freebairn]

I think you'll be really happy about exposure check. It allows information to be based on RAW and is overlayed over the video preview, so for example, you can rate the camera at 2000 at night and still know what parts of the frame are clipped/crushed.

Because the MX is so noiseless, you can choose where middle grey is (the green in false color) by adjusting either ISO or FLUT. I'd highly recommend reading some of the various threads on Exposure Check, it's the very best way to get quick feed back of exposure during a take.

 

[John Brawley]

I think you'll be really happy about exposure check. It allows information to be based on RAW and is overlayed over the video preview,

Yes i know. I like it, but it's not overlayed. It makes everything black & white except for whats outside of clip. Again, no good for when you're rolling...! Not listening !!!

jb

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Except for when you're actually rolling and don't want to monitor in RAW.

And you don't want the director, continuity make up to watch the take going down in RAW...

jb

But the RAW False Colour mode is just taking the colours from the RAW - the normal video comes through just as normal (as in black and white as in the old false colour).

The issue is that before, if you deviated from ISO320, the false colours became increasingly meaningless with respect to how the underlying RAW was exposed. So Stuart and I worked on this new type of false colour that relates it's red back to the underlying RAW data so that no matter the ISO, it indicates clipping. Similarly, the purple for potential under-exposure relates back to the RAW. In the old false colour modes, they always related back to the RGB.

Graeme

 

[Brian D. Goff]

Except for when you're actually rolling and don't want to monitor in RAW.

And you don't want the director, continuity make up to watch the take going down in RAW...

jb

I also miss the red color and in-between colors in RAW view. I did notice, that if you change the "exposure" setting in video menu, you can place the red (overexposed) color where you want it in relation to raw - so when raw clips, REDcolor goes red (don't know if it does this at all iso settings).
Grame, does this mean that I can adjust the Video parameters in a way, that "REDcolor" will display all the colors within the RED's dynamic range?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Ok, so what you want is raw zebras, right?

WIth FLUT in camera, it means that we always map the full range (unless you deliberately force clipping with exposure control).

Graeme

 

[John Brawley]

But the RAW False Colour mode is just taking the colours from the RAW - the normal video comes through just as normal (as in black and white as in the old false colour).

The issue is that before, if you deviated from ISO320, the false colours became increasingly meaningless with respect to how the underlying RAW was exposed. So Stuart and I worked on this new type of false colour that relates it's red back to the underlying RAW data so that no matter the ISO, it indicates clipping. Similarly, the purple for potential under-exposure relates back to the RAW. In the old false colour modes, they always related back to the RGB.

Graeme

I'm not talking about false colour, although it's related.

Grame, you've created a new feature to deal with a problem but you've crippled a very important feature....Zebra.

I was actually referring to Zebra more than false colour. There is no way to judge clipping WHILE YOURE SHOOTING in a specific area of the frame.

**EDIT.
I know the meters start to become more meaningless once you leave 320 and that the exposure guides are assuming 320. I knew all of this and developed a feel for how things worked...which is all changed !


jb

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Ah, but zebra never showed correct clipping other than at ISO320, which is obviously not right. If you dropped to ISO200 it would never show you clipping even when you were, which could (and probably has) caused serious issues.

So, I don't know if a raw zebra is possible with the red one camera architecture as-is. This is something Stuart and I will have to discuss and see what can be done.

Graeme

 

[John Brawley]

Ok, so what you want is raw zebras, right?

WIth FLUT in camera, it means that we always map the full range (unless you deliberately force clipping with exposure control).

Graeme

Well as long as I can monitor and shoot in redcolour. Show me a zebra that works off RAW but overlays on redcolour ? And while you're tweaking zebra, why have you got upper and lower limits on where they can be set (like zebra 1 cant go below 70)

Or can't you have an option to have it behave in a linear way like you used to ? Redcolour for those that want it and non-FLUT redcolour so I can at least have my zebras working the way they used to.

jb

 

[John Brawley]

Ah, but zebra never showed correct clipping other than at ISO320, which is obviously not right.

IT IS IF YOU KNOW THAT !!!!!

Sorry, but I'm so pissed because I only discovered this today and starting Monday I'm going into a 14 WEEK 4 camera shoot on a national primetime TV series and I don't want to have to update the build halfway though my shoot !!!

I KNOW that it only works off 320. I KNOW ! 95% of the time I shoot at 320 !!!

jb

EDIT.
Why not create another option to redcolour / RAW, where the ISO is locked at 320 and then restore the metering options.

 

[Brian D. Goff]

Ok, so what you want is raw zebras, right?

WIth FLUT in camera, it means that we always map the full range (unless you deliberately force clipping with exposure control).

Graeme

The thing is this: With colors in the raw view I could determine what is clipped and what is under exposed AND, I could tell quickly what is let's say in the "green" zone. This way I could direct the grip to give me more or less light on a specific part in the picture - without having to run over to the DIT and see the image on his ref-monitor. With only a B/W image and only red/purple, I don't have this control anymore.

just my 2cents

 

[Brian D. Goff]

Ok, so what you want is raw zebras, right?
Graeme

Well, actually I never use zebras, never have, never will. I did how ever REALY REALY love the false colors in RAW view - I also shoot 99% on 320iso and only go for higher iso when I don't see anything any more in the EVF and then I know I'm leaving the sensors "real" iso.
So it really would be great to give us an option with RAW and full colors over lay (locked to 320 iso would be ok).

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Especially with M-X we need to make sure things work really well over a very wide range of ISOs, and with the new image processing, you can even use M over a bit wider range than before.

As I said before, I don't know the practical limits of what is possible on RED One hardware, so I'll have to chat with Stuart and see what we can do to improve things.

Graeme

 

[John Brawley]

As I said before, I don't know the practical limits of what is possible on RED One hardware, so I'll have to chat with Stuart and see what we can do to improve things.

I don't want to heavy you graeme, but seriously, this is a major major flaw.

Come up with something else to replace Zebra if you have to, but there has to be some way to monitor sensor clipping that is visually specific to the image and discreet WHILE YOU SHOOT.

I was HAPPY with the work around being that the ISO had to be 320. You really really have done something horrible by taking it away.

It's not good enough to take something that worked at 320 away because you want to cater to a wider range of sensor extremes when metering in modes that are not appropriate to actual shooting.

jb

 

[Graeme Nattress]

You may be happy with the "only ISO320" work around, and I'm happy with the "rest of the image is black and white" work around. It's also more accurate than before. Balancing these things to get a camera who's architecture was not designed to do the things that today we want it to do is a very tricky task.

Now, it sounds to me that we need to take another look at how zebras are or are not working. They don't need to be referencing RAW for your needs - they just need to indicate clipping at ISO320. Is that right?

Graeme

 

[Ramesh Jai]

I really feel you John. Would a short term alternative be to not shoot on this build and go back to the build you love atleast until they address your concern..?