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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED & ATOMOS Ninja

Hey Johnny I know what your saying is correct, that's why I'm buying this camera. However having spent some time in broadcast I can also see the other side of the coin. I believe the Scarlet X market is different to the Epic market simply because a younger market is buying it. Hence this market will be far more likely to shoot for TV, corporate & Web on jobs where an Epic would be overkill. IF you can get 442 out of the port & record to a Samurai that could be very flexible for say web based or certain types of long form productions, my only concern is the 8 bit aspect as opposed to Scarlets 16 bit (I think based on Epics specs. Is this correct?)

Also, I think everyone is seeing this as a black or white option which maybe it isn't . For instance what's to stop dual recording both in Pro Res & Red Raw simultaneously . Off lining in pro rez than convert the Redraw "go takes" & then update the EDL. Whilst I don't have neither the camera or the Atomos yet, I believe this could be a highly flexible option maximising quality, minimising transcoding for those without RED rocket.
 
Thing is here with RAW...you NEED time.....buying red will not save you time, you have to work to put in the time...most of my work is underwater docs and red is not the camera one would think to use for this...but i put in 4x the time than with say EX1; F750 et.al....but results stand out. Much of all this conversation also depends on who our mentors are/were. Mine are guys that have consistently touted the benefits of putting in post time to produce beautiful imagery that stand out when compared to others....so i'm coming from that background already and after many years of growing roots from my arse in my edit chair....i've been able to grow accustomed to such a work style and it does not intimidate me. But along with the Red flow comes a whole lot of extra $$ to upgrade your edit station. if one wants to shoot prores from RED, great. I just don't think the aforementioned devices produce the best results compared to the cameras mentioned. I'm trying to think of the last device i used and results were lackluster....not keypro, but another one...anyway, i went back to recording the native codec on that panisonic 3d camera....

there are also other ways to work with raw files through say Premier Pro in RAW, with a Quadro 4000 video card or use the quicktime refereance files and conform later to R3ds.

I get you want options.....but i think also many new users need to know what is being aired out here....use RED for RAW capability. And the camera is not the only factor to consider here...There are MANY MANY other factors....from camera accessories costing as much as the camera to Computer accessories....also costing sometimes as much as the camera. So it's a huge investment, but well worth it if you plan to milk the images for as much as you can.
 
Johnny Friday said:
Thing is here with RAW...you NEED time.....buying red will not save you time, you have to work to put in the time...most of my work is underwater docs and red is not the camera one would think to use for this...but i put in 4x the time than with say EX1; F750 et.al....but results stand out. Much of all this conversation also depends on who our mentors are/were. Mine are guys that have consistently touted the benefits of putting in post time to produce beautiful imagery that stand out when compared to others....so i'm coming from that background already and after many years of growing roots from my arse in my edit chair....i've been able to grow accustomed to such a work style and it does not intimidate me. But along with the Red flow comes a whole lot of extra $$ to upgrade your edit station. if one wants to shoot prores from RED, great. I just don't think the aforementioned devices produce the best results compared to the cameras mentioned. I'm trying to think of the last device i used and results were lackluster....not keypro, but another one...anyway, i went back to recording the native codec on that panisonic 3d camera....

there are also other ways to work with raw files through say Premier Pro in RAW, with a Quadro 4000 video card or use the quicktime refereance files and conform later to R3ds.

I get you want options.....but i think also many new users need to know what is being aired out here....use RED for RAW capability. And the camera is not the only factor to consider here...There are MANY MANY other factors....from camera accessories costing as much as the camera to Computer accessories....also costing sometimes as much as the camera. So it's a huge investment, but well worth it if you plan to milk the images for as much as you can.
Click to expand...

I'm only listing one of the uses that I want for it. I've been renting a local Red One for shoots and that could be money that's going back into my pocket. You're derailing a thread that has more to do about figuring out how something works, with questions about why we want it to work that way.

I'm not the only one here that is thinking about doing something like this, so there has to be some merit to it.

I'll admit that I'm not rich, I'm still relatively young (26) and just had my first child. I can't just drop 14K on the full kit. It's going to be something I build up over time. I know the benefits of the RED and RAW, having shot quite a few projects on it. But I also know the benefits of having option of taking one piece of kit and making it work with other projects.

If that doesn't work for you, that's fine. We all have our niche. But I'd appreciate it if you didn't derail my thread.
 
Johnny Friday said:
Mark, i can see you don't get what i'm saying then. I want to shoot prores---run and gun, i'll pull out an EX1 or anything similar. Shooting RED with Keypro or other devices....i can't recall the one i tested many months ago...but colors were horrible at mpg 2 and 4:2:0 color space...my red then became a dummed down VX1000 basically....anyway, i think the end result here is right tool for the job...so if you plan to drop $2k or more on external recording devices that get you (in my opinion) substandard results....best to get better results with another camera. If you have clients that don't want you to shoot RAW and color your clips to best possible result, then shoot an ex1 or hvx 200 or cannon 5d...you'll get FAR SUPERIOR results than shooting through your RED to a prores recording device. And, you'll have a second camera to shoot with...
Click to expand...

Surely your comment about a VX1000 is hyperbole, but it makes your point far more difficult to really understand. In what sense is an EX1/HVX/5D preferred over Scarlet with external 10bit(?) 422 1080p recording? Those cameras record onboard to far more compressed and poorly implemented formats than high-bitrate Prores 422... and besides those cameras not being super35, the HVX and 5D are severely undersampled in their 1080p output. The idea behind the option of recording Scarlet's output to external devices has a number of easy to understand benefits. Cost, ease, and speed are the greatest of these. For example run and gun or jobs with very rushed delivery are not uncommon for me and the cost and burden of RED's recording media is easy to see. As someone who has owned and used quite a wide variety of prosumer cameras, I can tell you I would rather shoot everything on a digital cinema camera. I have never met a prosumer video camera or DSLR that did not leave a lot to be desired in terms of gamma curves and color reproduction. Scarlet has the potential to provide much sharper oversampled 1080p images and more latitude with better response curves than any of the cameras yoou mentioned, plus it will likely be better in low light and offer more interesting lens options. Why exactly do you believe the image quality from Scarlet's 1080p output will be inferior to the cameras youve listed?

The strengths of Scarlet's image quality comes from the fundamental attributes of resolution and latitude and color science, which may certainly be compromised somewhat by external recording, but some of those attributes are invariably compromised down the line for TV and web deliveries anyway. Even if RED line skips for its 1080p (hopefully it does not) it will still probably be sharper with less aliasing than a 5D/7D, even if there is some latitude loss, it will still probably have more latitude than an EX1, and even without high bitrate raw, prores 422 will easily be less prone to artifacting, softening, and posterization than h.264, xdcamex or dvcprohd.

Your suggestion that someone should buy an expensive camera with inferior image quality in addition to their Scarlet for run and gun instead of simply adding longer recording times and faster workflows to their Scarlet for less money does not make a lot of sense to me.

Costwise and workflow wise, external recording is a very interesting option since it allows us to have unlimited recording times for little money instead of being required to buy several $1k+ RED SSDs. Everyone says Scarlet has to cost $15k to shoot, but if you wanted to hook it up to an external recorder that doubles as a monitor, you could shoot all day on a scarlet package that only cost ~$12k. It would also save on power to power your recorder/monitor separately so you'd get longer life out of your expensive redvolt or v-mount batteries...
 
Nik Lachajczak said:
Im a bit of a noob when it comes to using RED let alone owning fulltime ready to go, but i do tend to agree with mr J friday. A lot of people [including me briefly] are probably thinking options and time and oh i could shoot my corporate on a RED and blah blah, but i for one , have reassessed all that and come back to the pure rational for buying a RED. That is to shoot the stuff its meant for. Of course people will be fast to find exceptions , but things its NOT intended for would include long form doco, corporates , training videos, events (eek!) , even a lot of TVC and mus vid projects and any sort of long stand around or fast turn around stuff, it just isnt what RED was designed for. My plan for little Scarlet when she comes out of the case is to shoot a lot less and shoot it a lot better, feel the power of the RAW environment and save it for drama and projects where clients dont need it yesterday and do appreciate what the cameras can do. Theres no way id dump my Mk II .. itll still be going out on most of the jobs i do [often with a workflow friendly EX] And all the Scarlet buyers [including me] should be wary about pulling out the RED just cause ..well.. they can pull out the RED
my 2 oz cents .com!
Click to expand...

Nik, it's a camera. It takes pictures. That's all it does. So there's absolutely no reason that you can't use it to make whatever kind of pictures you want (assuming you can make its form factor work).

I have no idea where this holy notion of Red cameras only being appropriate for 'glamourous' shooting scenarios has come from, but it's ridiculous. If you need fast-turnaround or longer recording times, adding an offboard recorder can give you those things (whilst still leaving you the capability to shoot raw if you want to).

A camera is just a tool, how you use that tool to get the job done is entirely up to you.
 
If RED launched a 1080p Pro Res module tomorrow.... It would be the biggest selling accessory of all time.

If the Samaria* can provide even 75% of the quality of such a module... It is worth investigating. A nice 4:2:2 10bit file with, say, 12 stops DR and 1.4k of real resolution.... that would be great for the majority of work that alot of Scarlet owners will be doing to put bread on the table.

(*I don't think the hdmi connection of the Ninja is safe enough for a paid project)
 
ProRes sucks. Your taking a beautiful unadultered RAW video and compressing it, before you even edit! I feel like when you transcode to prores you are losing the true power of red footage. ProRes = old way of final cut. Even say you do go to prores, then decide to relink back to the raw and re transcode after coloring, that is a ridiculous amount of extra work and time! Skip the middle and edit right off the r3ds.

Everyone should be using Adobe Premiere :)

And I'm not a fan of external recorders in general. Their good as a backup but I wouldn't bet my project on em.
 
Yes, recording useable, quality output from HD-SDI to my Nanoflash would satisfy the needs of many of my clients who either cannot deal with 4k raw, don't want to, or can't afford to take the time. For those clients, a clean debayered output, still with many of the benefits of the RED image, is a perfect solution. I asked a prominent RED member who posts here the status of this function, what the quality of the video output would be. He did not really answer the question, but instead provided a link to published tech specs. This leaves really two possibilities, as he did not provide an answer in the affirmative. I would assume that they are either (1) working on it, or (2) at this time, the answer is no. I hope that is incorrect, or that a quality, full-screen 1080 output will be possible eventually.
 
Brandon - I found out that the Ki Pro Mini released an update that will allow it to record files with identical filenames as R3D files....(I've also heard that Sound Devices PIX 220 does this as well)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?61756-EPIC-gt-ProRes-via-AJA-KiPro-Mini&

So consider those options as you build your package - this means that you can record SSD recode and prores at the same time and be able to skip render times and not need a red rocket and still finish with R3D raw files - I'm very stoked about this
 
That's pretty great!

I ended up just ordering the full Canon Package. I didn't want to fuss around, and with the prices going up on the Side Handle and everything, I figured I might as well get in while it's cheaper. :)
 
steven moreno said:
Brandon - I found out that the Ki Pro Mini released an update that will allow it to record files with identical filenames as R3D files....(I've also heard that Sound Devices PIX 220 does this as well)
Click to expand...

Actually only the PIX 240 does this... 220 is a dumbed-down version, unfortunately...

Stu Aull
Alaska
 
Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
Surely your comment about a VX1000 is hyperbole, but it makes your point far more difficult to really understand. In what sense is an EX1/HVX/5D preferred over Scarlet with external 10bit(?) 422 1080p recording? Those cameras record onboard to far more compressed and poorly implemented formats than high-bitrate Prores 422... and besides those cameras not being super35, the HVX and 5D are severely undersampled in their 1080p output. The idea behind the option of recording Scarlet's output to external devices has a number of easy to understand benefits. Cost, ease, and speed are the greatest of these. For example run and gun or jobs with very rushed delivery are not uncommon for me and the cost and burden of RED's recording media is easy to see. As someone who has owned and used quite a wide variety of prosumer cameras, I can tell you I would rather shoot everything on a digital cinema camera. I have never met a prosumer video camera or DSLR that did not leave a lot to be desired in terms of gamma curves and color reproduction. Scarlet has the potential to provide much sharper oversampled 1080p images and more latitude with better response curves than any of the cameras yoou mentioned, plus it will likely be better in low light and offer more interesting lens options. Why exactly do you believe the image quality from Scarlet's 1080p output will be inferior to the cameras youve listed?

The strengths of Scarlet's image quality comes from the fundamental attributes of resolution and latitude and color science, which may certainly be compromised somewhat by external recording, but some of those attributes are invariably compromised down the line for TV and web deliveries anyway. Even if RED line skips for its 1080p (hopefully it does not) it will still probably be sharper with less aliasing than a 5D/7D, even if there is some latitude loss, it will still probably have more latitude than an EX1, and even without high bitrate raw, prores 422 will easily be less prone to artifacting, softening, and posterization than h.264, xdcamex or dvcprohd.

Your suggestion that someone should buy an expensive camera with inferior image quality in addition to their Scarlet for run and gun instead of simply adding longer recording times and faster workflows to their Scarlet for less money does not make a lot of sense to me.

Costwise and workflow wise, external recording is a very interesting option since it allows us to have unlimited recording times for little money instead of being required to buy several $1k+ RED SSDs. Everyone says Scarlet has to cost $15k to shoot, but if you wanted to hook it up to an external recorder that doubles as a monitor, you could shoot all day on a scarlet package that only cost ~$12k. It would also save on power to power your recorder/monitor separately so you'd get longer life out of your expensive redvolt or v-mount batteries...
Click to expand...

exactly.
well said...

Stu Aull
Alaska
Immediate PIX-user/future SSD user
 
Maybe I'm a bit blind, if this has been answered I do apologise,

The samurai or even the ninja, either one, as a pro-res module alternative/proxy module alternative, is it possible to get the file names and meta data etc. all in the stream that gets recorded on either set,

Start/stop with the record button and all? Just purely because I'd do offline first, for speed then an online when I'm back at a much more powerful work station

So wondering if this is a possibility for a proxy module alternative? do like the ability to review and use as a monitor from this
 
Only unit I've heard confirmed on-off recording via RED, plus TC read of RED output is the Sound Devices PIX 240 via SDI. They have a video showing this on their site. Not sure about meta-data tho...

Stu Aull
Alaska
 
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