RED - ARRI - AJA - Black Magic - Its Crazy!

[Clayton Moore]

The market is moving VERY FAST right now, and to try and be truly unique and stand out in the market place making cameras, is very risky these days.
RED and ARRI are camera companies, they’re very good at it, and have carved out their place in that market. Fact is though, image quality is becoming very commoditized very fast and its spreading out all over the place. The day when ubiquity hits this camera market is very close at hand. Much of what has made RED a unique and exciting brand until now, is the place it’s held in the market…but the market is changing quickly and companies like Black Magic is partly to blame. Not just the cameras themseves of course but their compeditive market effect. AJA and Black Magic making cinema cameras? Who knew. Then again the DSLR was the earthquake that rocked the LSS camera word and nothing has been the same since.


Remember when Apple Inc. was Apple Computer Inc.? When Apple realized they could not sustain the power of the brand with primarily computers, things changed. Now even with iTunes content and mobile computing, people wonder if Apple as a powerhouse brand can be sustainable.


What about cameras, a much much smaller market? What gives RED as a unique brand high value going forward? Are companies like AJA and Black Magic just a list of pro features, some color technology and a few stops away from sucking some air out of the high end? There is a whole other discussion to be had about Canon and Panasonic and SONY not to mention content itself. Content distribution and viewing audience and all of that. It may be that companies like RED have a small enough niche that they don’t need much to keep them firmly in place. It just seems to me though, that technology is quickly pushing cameras into that fuzzy world (like computers) where they will all be able to deliver much the same thing. In that scenario, it might be safer as a corporation to have cameras as a division, and not the whole enchilada. I wonder……


Closing thought ….. how do you judge camera images? With your eyes. Your eye, a 120+ MP camera system about the size of a micro 4/3’s lens circle, with an attached, fixed, kit lens, connected to a nuero image processor and together, capable of an effective, “dynamic”, 20 stop, contrast ratio approaching a million to one.


Maybe the high end camera guys have some elbow room after all.

 

[Brian Timmons]

Wow, you need a few threads to discuss all of this.
I have to admit I'm not quite sure how things will play out in the Large sensor world of cameras.
I do wonder if there are that many people in the large sensor market to support so many players.
Just as you said though DSLRs have helped change the use of such cameras particular in non pro and indy areas.

I liked RED from the beginning because they seemed uniquely motivated perhaps self possessed to make an impact on the film world and image acquisition in general. To me they succeeded.
Years later they still have that motivation. Their company character makes it easy for me to feel confident in their ability to push innovation and secure their place in the world.
We'll see.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Phil Holland]

Well the one thing I'll say from a creative standpoint is that I don't want a 4/3"s camera as my primary capture device. While it's tremendous what's going on there, format size is very important to certain creative and technical types. S35 through FF35 and likely larger sensors are coming. That's where the joy of motion picture making exists for many. S16 is entirely relevant, don't get me wrong. But there's a reason people want larger format sensors.

The market is certainly changing. That's a given. The AJA Cion and the BMD URSA share the same exact CMOS sensor technology. Their uniqueness more or less comes with what they are both making "unique" on the hardware front. These are both the camera they were talking about making a year ago, so it's no real surprise.

Red has moved forward with Dragon. Industry leading at the moment in sensor size, resolution, dynamic range, color, frame rate, image character, etc... Though I'm sure some will find subjective qualities in that statement. Red is one of very few companies making a full multi-format system and I hope it continues in the direction it's going. Pixel design is indeed an important factor, though many will find it difficult to "see it's relevance". However those working on higher profile projects will obviously see the benefits. Also, REDCODE RAW workflows are supported nearly everywhere it matters now. Post hardware has caught up and working natively with .R3Ds has never been easier.

There's more technological advancements happening all the time. UHD is changing the shape and path of people's expectations of the market place.

If I was any of these companies with cameras in the $3-$15K range I'd be more concerned about what Canon has up their sleeves..... This past year has been..... well.... oddly quiet. And we know they can do more than what is in currently available cameras.

However, I honestly think Scarlet Dragon is the clear winner for entry level digital cinema camera body. With Epic Dragon of course being the flagship (Carbon Dragon more specifically!). The crystal ball is foggy for some. However, it's clear for others. It's an interesting world in reality. The bleeding edge that leads to common delivery, market demand, and technological advancement play roles in a very exponentially graph-able way.

I'm happy to see that Red is paving the road for 4K+. Remember not long ago people and companies who were "bashing" 4K+ are now on board. Makes you wonder.

 

[Justin McAleece]

What thing that has possibly changed from the old days of video is that people and companies often have several cameras now. I usually have 4 or 5 types of cameras at any given time for various uses. I think that the prices have made it that way for a lot of people. That doesn't speak much to the original question, but it does increase the size of the market.

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

Well the one thing I'll say from a creative standpoint is that I don't want a 4/3"s camera as my primary capture device. While it's tremendous what's going on there, format size is very important to certain creative and technical types. S35 through FF35 and likely larger sensors are coming. That's where the joy of motion picture making exists for many. S16 is entirely relevant, don't get me wrong. But there's a reason people want larger format sensors.

The market is certainly changing. That's a given. The AJA Cion and the BMD URSA share the same exact CMOS sensor technology. Their uniqueness more or less comes with what they are both making "unique" on the hardware front. These are both the camera they were talking about making a year ago, so it's no real surprise.

Red has moved forward with Dragon. Industry leading at the moment in sensor size, resolution, dynamic range, color, frame rate, image character, etc... Though I'm sure some will find subjective qualities in that statement. Red is one of very few companies making a full multi-format system and I hope it continues in the direction it's going. Pixel design is indeed an important factor, though many will find it difficult to "see it's relevance". However those working on higher profile projects will obviously see the benefits. Also, REDCODE RAW workflows are supported nearly everywhere it matters now. Post hardware has caught up and working natively with .R3Ds has never been easier.

There's more technological advancements happening all the time. UHD is changing the shape and path of people's expectations of the market place.

If I was any of these companies with cameras in the $3-$15K range I'd be more concerned about what Canon has up their sleeves..... This past year has been..... well.... oddly quiet. And we know they can do more than what is in currently available cameras.

However, I honestly think Scarlet Dragon is the clear winner for entry level digital cinema camera body. With Epic Dragon of course being the flagship (Carbon Dragon more specifically!). The crystal ball is foggy for some. However, it's clear for others. It's an interesting world in reality. The bleeding edge that leads to common delivery, market demand, and technological advancement play roles in a very exponentially graph-able way.

I'm happy to see that Red is paving the road for 4K+. Remember not long ago people and companies who were "bashing" 4K+ are now on board. Makes you wonder.

I do agree with you about 98% but RED is not multiformat camera. Others handle formats much better without crop. Just have a look at multiformat of Cion, F55 or Varicams. No question about Scarlet with Dragon being bargain of a Camera but having recording formats without crop would be handy and having Prores inluded would be tops ;-)
If Sony can record Prores now......

 

[Clayton Moore]

The other question, the obvious one is, where will the content end up? How will the evolution from broadcast to steaming effect the creation process if at all. In network traffic last year (cable TV and internet streaming) 2/3’s was streaming. The future of broadcast is pretty clear. Also streaming content to mobile devices is only getting more prevalent.


Global movie ticket sales went up but not domestically where sales are still flat and in a kind of stagnation period right now. Ticket prices, the cost of popcorn, the affordability of home theater….?…who knows. iMax, a Canadian company, has been doing well, still however the growth in box office has been in overseas markets with China being the leader. We have only seen the very beginning of movie making tools from that market.


As an aside it’s just about impossible to get a blockbuster shown in China without it being converted to 3d.


Another aside — DLSR sales fell last year by 10%, if they level off there or fall another 2% or so, you will very quickly see the market react with SONY and Panasonic leading the way to high end DSLM - mirror-less cameras.


Finally, Hollywood may have deep pockets, but they are nowhere near as deep as they are in Silicon Valley and new technologies.
As an example ..
SONY Pictures Entertainment:
Tristar, Columbia, Screen Gems, SONY ____ fill in the blank… and more… all of it a division of SONY which has a market cap of just under 19 billion.


Apple, MSFT, Google, Amazon, Netflix .. has a combined market cap of well over a Trillion Dollars. Movie studios and even TV networks don't make premium content, “people / talent” does. People and their talent is always for sale. When Silicon Valley finally gets it, they’ll be able to outbid any network or studio in the world for talent, then divert or distribute content any way they choose.


Its a new world buckle up!

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

WIthout doing any Red asslicking, there will always be a market for Champagne, and for beer. Beer sales do not affect champagne sales. Red, Arri, Sony F55/F65 these are champagne, and BM is beer. It lacks refinement (no OLPF, no way to fine-tuen autoficus, very looses QC standards, less dynamic range, huge RAW fiel sizes that slow down production… etc). if all you want to do is get drunk, then go for beer. I for one want the very best, because it really does make my job easier.