RED and Arri...

[Martin Stevens]

We would love to have you involved! Just make sure all companies are completely involved for the most fair tests.

Tests should include:

1. Resolution
2. Color
3. Dynamic Range
4. Sensitivity
5. Feel

We would certainly expect the tests to include the Arri dynamic range test, over/under, a zone plate, green screen and tests at high ISO. I would expect the results should be shown at 4k and 1080P. Am I forgetting anything?

Jim

And 6. PRICE...... which is one of the main reason I will buy Red Cameras vs Arri Cameras.

 

[Jeffrey T. Morgan]

And 6. PRICE...... which is the main reason I will buy Red Cameras vs Arri Cameras.

:iagree:

 

[JonathanF]

I think the actual evaluation will be handled by the public.

I hardly think the "public" should handle this type of review. This is the type of review that requires specific technical knowledge.

Mike is correct that now is not the time for this and we need BOTH companies to be in a 'ready to ship' position with both products before any of the fanboi's get too excited about the rumble at the Academy. I suspect both cameras will perform suitably well and each will appeal to cinematographers. The key to tests like this would be to understand what makes each system more suited to certain types of jobs. Once again, horses for courses.

If this was my choice I would have the following at the test:

Jim and Stephan (as observers, and I do mean JUST observers).
Yuri Neyman, ASC
Theo Van de Sande, ASC
Roberto Schaefer, ASC
Bill Hogan
Mike Most
Josh Pines
​

Between these people you have all the necessary (and I should add relevant) expertise and experience (and both are important) to make such a test fair, and thorough.

Oddly, there were a number of us who were going to do this on our own in March (including quite a few on this list).

J

 

[JonathanF]

I can build my own one for less than that.

I would say that you probably could not build one for less than $25k. Not one that worked. If you have a look at the one in the D21 and explain how you'd accomplish that for less than 25K (and convice me to use it in the field for production) I'll be suitably impressed.

 

[Brian Harbauer]

We would love to have you involved! Just make sure all companies are completely involved for the most fair tests.

Tests should include:

1. Resolution
2. Color
3. Dynamic Range
4. Sensitivity
5. Feel

We would certainly expect the tests to include the Arri dynamic range test, over/under, a zone plate, green screen and tests at high ISO. I would expect the results should be shown at 4k and 1080P. Am I forgetting anything?

Jim

Jim, perhaps this is a non-issue for any digital camera now - but I think it would be prudent to test for fixed noise pattern (or lack there of).
Also any ghosting coming off of a high intensity light source.

 

[M Most]

If this was my choice I would have the following at the test:

Jim and Stephan (as observers, and I do mean JUST observers).
Yuri Neyman, ASC
Theo Van de Sande, ASC
Roberto Schaefer, ASC
Bill Hogan
Mike Most
Josh Pines
​

Between these people you have all the necessary (and I should add relevant) expertise and experience (and both are important) to make such a test fair, and thorough.

That's flattering, but I would rather see people like David Mullen, Dave Stump, and Geoff Boyle involved than I would me. And possibly Tom Tcimpidis for camera setup and other DIT chores. And I would probably nominate Lou Levinson to handle the post coloring chores.

 

[Stephen Williams]

I would say that you probably could not build one for less than $25k. Not one that worked. If you have a look at the one in the D21 and explain how you'd accomplish that for less than 25K (and convice me to use it in the field for production) I'll be suitably impressed.

I will use a beamsplitter, I don't need to reinvent the wheel just build an optical viewfinder.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

I would humbly suggest waiting...

I understand Jim's desire to have everyone stand up and take notice of the Mysterium X's capabilities, but I would also say that most people in the industry are already doing that. Since it will likely be more refined and have additional capabilities in the Epic line, it will be more directly comparable to what Arri is trying to do. There is little point in setting up any kind of formal comparison until both products are finished and in shipping condition.

:iagree:

great point here... we are all eager to see this test, but I agree with Mike... let's have it with working production units in the field. Because thats what we all will be using.

 

[JD Holloway]

Isn't it rather strange to propose this before Epic ships?
I mean, it's supposed to have much higher REDCode capabilities.
Is there some sort of product release, marketing strategy here?

Perhaps, borrowing a phase from the "Princess Bride"
"you're not left handed"...

(hehe somebody beat me to it) f5 f5 f5

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I see an OVF as a tool of the past, requested mainly by "old" people, unwilling to adapt to new technology. An Evf/lcd gives you a truer representation of what you will end up getting. An OVF will give you an image without power, that's the only argument I see for having it, and at 20$ a piece I'd rather get a couple of extra batteries.

 

[Martin Stevens]

I will use a beamsplitter, I don't need to reinvent the wheel just build an optical viewfinder.

Yes, sounds good.....BUT, a lot of light loss.....however, perhaps now this will not be a big issue given ISO 2000 etc.

 

[rod bradley]

Just to chime in the need for a Red OVF, as one who spent most of his life shooting via OVF, I'm very happy with Red's EVF (the old one) -- and the new one will be even better. Perhaps an OVF would give some who find change difficult a certain comfort level with what they're used to. But really, any advantages (and expense) are far out-weighed by even Red's original EVF, IMHO. Undoubtedly more so by the new "bomb" (so-called) EVF.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I would humbly suggest waiting with such comparisons until the products actually exist. What one would want to compare would be the Alexa line with the Epic. That means there actually needs to be an Alexa and an Epic, not pre production, non-working prototypes.

I understand Jim's desire to have everyone stand up and take notice of the Mysterium X's capabilities, but I would also say that most people in the industry are already doing that. Since it will likely be more refined and have additional capabilities in the Epic line, it will be more directly comparable to what Arri is trying to do. There is little point in setting up any kind of formal comparison until both products are finished and in shipping condition. Testing prior to product completion and revealing those tests in public is part of what got Red in trouble with some of the mainstream industry early on. It is not fair or sensible to expect Arri to put themselves in a similar position.

Most does make a lot make sense in this case, IMHO.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Yes, sounds good.....BUT, a lot of light loss.....however, perhaps now this will not be a big issue given ISO 2000 etc.

1/3 stop has never been a problem with a 1944 Mitchell I often use, I seldom use film faster than 250 ISO, MX is 800 ISO, it won't be a problem for me. I just want a OVF, simple & cheap soloution is fine.

 

[Jannard]

Allow me to wind this one down for now. I have great respect for Arri (own lots of Arri gear) and think the Alexa program will certainly deserve major consideration. We'll do the test so the industry has a clear understanding of the strengths of both systems when the cameras are production ready. That will be the most fair situation.

Until then... Thread Closed.

Jim