RED and Arri...

[Ikemedia]

Sounds good.

 

[Brigham Edgar]

The tests are a great idea, now let's see if all will step up...

Even though it won't be part of the tests and shouldn't be, reliability is a very important factor when choosing formats and cameras to use in production. If it comes down to a choice of two when all other factors are evenly matched, things such as this will be a major point in decision making....as it is now. So i agree with you Pawel.

But these tests are going to be of major interest to the community worldwide...providing everyone is involved and ready to go. Last thing anyone wants to hear is 'but we were not quite finished with our camera'...especially if they are the ones found wanting...

 

[Jeff Coatney]

We would love to have you involved! Just make sure all companies are completely involved for the most fair tests.

Tests should include:

1. Resolution
2. Color
3. Dynamic Range
4. Sensitivity
5. Feel

We would certainly expect the tests to include the Arri dynamic range test, over/under, a zone plate, green screen and tests at high ISO. I would expect the results should be shown at 4k and 1080P. Am I forgetting anything?

Jim

The testing that has been done involving digital cameras has been flawed IMO. To improve the results and make them truly valuable for both the end user and the manufacturer, I would make the following requests:

Each camera system must be operated by a dedicated expert for the camera in question, chosen by the manufacturer. The testing regime can be conducted under the supervision of a qualified professional, but the actual operation of the gear must be carried out by a representative of each company. (Previous testing has revealed that there is an inconsistency of trained personnel using the cameras in question-- allowing each camera system to use its own expert removes this inconsistency from the test.)


The following criteria should be followed:

1. Resolution - The testing should occur at the highest resolution available at 24 fps. Additional frame rates are not required, IMO. Resolution should be judged based on the ability to deliver a 4K, 2K and HD finish.

2. Color - Color testing should be done at both 3200 K and 5600 K only. Color temperature should be confirmed prior to each exposure to eliminate variances in bulb lumens and electrical interference. The exact same instruments and positioning should be used.

To augment the color test, two models of differing characteristics should be lit and shot in close-up using the same lighting set-up and lens. The cameras will be swapped out and operated by their respective teams, but supervised by the governing body. The results will be graded and processed by a colorist of the manufacturer's choosing. The colorist will be allowed the footage from both cameras.

3. Dynamic Range - The Arri test would suffice here, since it is the accepted metric.

4. Sensitivity - The minimum and maximum range of ISO should be blind tested for noise (Pepsi Challenge style by Jury) The range of preferred ISO should be selected by each manufacturer, plus each camera must expose at a pre-selected range of ISO chosen by the governing body of professionals conducting the test.

5. Feel - I'm assuming this is ergonomics? This is an entirely subjective metric, IMO and while important, it is subject to change as the cameras enter the work environment and adapt to innovations and variances of use.

6. Lenses - The same lens must be used for each camera.

7. Green screen and Blue screen - Both are used and both are necessary to determine the limits of each system. Again, the set-up must be fixed, free of variance for every element but the camera.

8. Sensor Refresh Rate - A panning test of vertical lines or vertical subject matter should be conducted to determine motion artifacts like "jello effect". This test must be conducted using an automated motion control head to ensure a baseline of speed and movement to ensure fairness.

Protocol:

All test charts and lighting set ups, camera position, lenses and mattebox are fixed. Each camera is placed in this same set up for the test regimen. There can be no side by side testing. This is critical for an apples to apples comparison. All file management during post is allowed to be monitored by the competing team and an impartial third party observer. All footage must be screened on a calibrated 4K digital projector in the manufacturer's preferred format and in a DCS compliant format at the above mentioned resolutions. Tests and charts will be displayed using both vertical and horizontal split screen on a calibrated grading monitor.

This test has the potential to provide each manufacturer with the best competitive information about their product. It should also provide the professional community with the best baseline data on the advantages of each system and their respective operational ranges.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

6. Lenses - The same lens must be used for each camera.

Michael Bravin could bring a set of three new Leica's Mystery Primes for the test!!!

That would be amazing !!!

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

The most of ARRI "fans and freaks" will count on this:

"Using sophisticated motion estimation and spatial-temporal image filtering,
ARRI Relativity software offers Texture Control, (such as adding or
subtracting grain,) Film Simulation, and Space Time Converter (spatial resampling
and frame rate conversion.) ARRI Relativity™ software is powered by Pixel
Strings™, developed and licensed from CINNAFILM. Other product highlights
include several new ARRI lighting instruments and the new HD video assist for
film cameras."

LINK>>>

From the stuff I saw at IBC 2009 done with the Relativity software I was extremely impressed. Especially the de-graining of old filmstock and 16mm for Blu-ray releases.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

The most of ARRI "fans and freaks" will count on this:

"Using sophisticated motion estimation and spatial-temporal image filtering,
ARRI Relativity software offers Texture Control, (such as adding or
subtracting grain,) Film Simulation, and Space Time Converter (spatial resampling
and frame rate conversion.) ARRI Relativity™ software is powered by Pixel
Strings™, developed and licensed from CINNAFILM. Other product highlights
include several new ARRI lighting instruments and the new HD video assist for
film cameras."

Important Note Here:

Digital camera systems have two components: Hardware and Software. The Hardware must be compared using identical metrics. Software may comprise a critical piece of the system, but we're entering a gray area when we judge the capabilities of the software. It is almost a different product altogether. This is where the publishing and documenting of the results must be thorough, unedited and available to the community to draw their own conclusions.

 

[nota_zero]

Sorry to interrupt!

Sorry to interrupt!

Maybe, just for fun, some film stock proposed by jury members?

Having seen the Alexa prototypes at IBC last year, it is my impression that the Arri cameras should be really good. At ISO 800 they looked comparable to the Mysterium-X sensors. It would be a great thing to do a direct comparison of the two cameras so the industry has a clear idea of what the best options are out there going forward. My bet is that the Alexa lineup and EPIC cameras will be the two left standing for the near future.

I'm sure that Michael Bravin will help put this kind of test together. Any test of the two should be supervised by both companies along with the ASC camera committee? Maybe we could even get Sony to bring along an F35? We would be happy to host a test at the new RED Studios Hollywood.

How does that sound?

Jim

 

[Martin Ludwig]

So Sanjin... I can count you in with an officially placed order? Thanks... that makes 24 to go. Please send us $20,000 to confirm.

Jim

as soon there a specs for a OVF you can put me in with 2 pieces minimum. Really Jim, just go ahead and ask all rental companies, I am sure we will find enough companies to order one.

 

[fALk Gärtner]

Probably the only company directly against this event is Kodak

With all their might - they give away 35mm stock for free here in berlin just so people don´t shoot fx shots with red one. have been fx supervisor on two productions where this happened now in less then two month so it must be a "strategy" of them. How they think they can make money with that "business" model is a mystery to me so. Sadly the production companies fell over in both cases.

 

[Stephen Williams]

So Sanjin... I can count you in with an officially placed order? Thanks... that makes 24 to go. Please send us $20,000 to confirm.

Jim

Jim,

Bear in mind your existing customers were happy without an OVF, your not taking orders for Epic so it does not surprise me nobody has ordered! There is no possible way to do so.

Stephen

 

[John "Woody" Glaser]

Mr Jannard,
With all due respect, There are several DP's that I have spoken with whose only complaint is not having a OVF.
Not everyone is going to be shooting 4000 or 8000 ASA. There is plenty of work that goes on in studios that might warrant an OVF.
Best Regards,
Woody

 

[Stephen Williams]

What areas do you think that will be? I'm curious. Resolution? Color? Dynamic Range? Sensitivity? Frame rates? Feel?

I'm up. Where is Michael Bravin?

Jim

Hi Jim,

What about including a Film camera, there are plenty of 65mm cameras sitting at ARRI. You mentioned RED has recently been compared to 65mm.

Stephen

 

[fALk Gärtner]

7. Green screen and Blue screen - Both are used and both are necessary to determine the limits of each system. Again, the set-up must be fixed, free of variance for every element but the camera.

Yes please do both green and blue. also the screening should show the individual channels with details (like hair or similar) zoomed (200-400%) to get a better understanding of compression artifacts, noise, latitude etc. of the different cams/codecs.

(it would be a lot of fun to include a DSLR in this particular test)

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Cultured capitalism...

I like. :cornut:

 

[Michael N. Sutton]

I don't want to ruffle any feathers but I find it hard to believe that RED is unaware of Dalsa, a company that is known for making sensors with unmatched dynamic range and a better than film quality look 4K and higher.

I don't know if there is a partnership there or not.

The point is I think in any business that you excel in, you are fully aware of what others are doing, solutions, competitors, etc.

Dalsa is out of the high end camera rental business but continues to be a provider of high end sensors for camera manufacturers, military, medical, OEM, etc.


((preparing to be flamed here....and go!)):emote_head_explode:

 

[Irri]

Is it me, or are we talking about two cameras that don't exist yet?

Neither are available yet, so how can we compare them. The AOV won't be around for another year.

 

[Jay Silver]

Hey Jim,
don't you know someone who can get in touch with Michael Bravin and find out if they're ready to go head to head?

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Let's make no mistake here. Arri has a great program. My bet is that the two camera systems will distance the competition. But it sure will be fun to see exactly what each company has to offer. It will define what happens next.

Jim

My tough exactly.. difference will be that Arri, as every other company will bring a finished product to table, while Red, will more then likely still have some time to go back to the drawing table before deliveries begin on finalized product, giving Red a true advantage against any other company, PERIOD!!

To me there is no other advantage as large as that employed by Red , when thinking always forward and in bettering their IQ, and while every company might well think the same, and I sure hope for their sake they do, Red advantage is that they don't have to build a new camera to substitute a recent release as Arri is doing with the Alexa, replacing the recent D21, Red can just simply replace an internal component of the Epic/Scarlet Brain, and be done with, same camera, same accessories, till a such a huge advance is presented were then the Brain, needs to be upgraded, then by a new brain, sale the older one and recup few box, retain the entire line of accessories, same sized camera system to which you already got used to, and have bough an entire line of camera support for it.

In a way looking forward to it, simply because competition is always healthy, but I truly could care less who wins, my decision for the Epic will not be easily changed!

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Hey Jim,
don't you know someone who can get in touch with Michael Bravin and find out if they're ready to go head to head?

I doubt Arri will agree to this until their new cameras are closer to production - I suspect they are still tweekin' their sensor.

Last I heard ... they are on track to deliver 100 cameras in June with working prototypes at NAB. First 10 production units go to ARRI CSC in NYC.

They are shooting stuff with a "sensor in a box" ... so that could be used in a comparison.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I doubt Arri will agree to this until their new cameras are closer to production - I suspect they are still tweekin' their sensor.

Last I heard ... they are on track to deliver 100 cameras in June with working prototypes at NAB. First 10 production units go to ARRI CSC in NYC.

They are shooting stuff with a "sensor in a box" ... so that could be used in a comparison.

Next week on Friday evening January 29th there is an opportunity to meet ARRI people and maybe also Michael Bravin.


"Everything ARRI -- Check out Alexa and more at DCS Event January 29th at CSUN

The Digital Cinema Society will be treated to an exclusive preview of the latest ARRI technology
including next generation ARRI digital cameras codenamed Alexa, their innovative post-production software,
Relativity, and new lighting fixtures such as the highly efficient M18 1.8K HMI.


Designed around a newly developed CMOS sensor, the highly anticipated Alexa camera offers the best sensitivity
and dynamic range on the market, and at 800 ASA is more than two stops faster than its popular predecessor
the D-21. It will also feature a number of recording options, including a variety of on-board solutions
to provide greater versatility both on set and in post production.


Using sophisticated motion estimation and spatial-temporal image filtering, ARRI Relativity software offers Texture Control,
(such as adding or subtracting grain), Film Simulation, and Space Time Converter (spatial resampling and frame rate conversion).
ARRI Relativity™ software is powered by Pixel Strings™, developed and licensed from CINNAFILM.
Other product highlights include several new ARRI lighting instruments and the new HD video assist for film cameras.
We'll see it all at our "Everything ARRI" event.


Friday evening January 29th 7:30PM on the campus of California State University Northridge, (CSUN) Seating is limited,
and RSVPs are required. e-mail: Mathers@DigitalCinemaSociety.org with your name and “Everything ARRI” in the subject line.
(Note: The DCS team will be at the Consumer Electronics Show through the end of the week, but we will catch up with confirmations on our return.)
In the meantime, if you would like more details on any of these products, please visit the new ARRI Digital website at: www.arridigital.com"

LINK>>>