RED and Arri...

[christopher witzke]

Any chance to get the test filmed doc style? A mini doc on the process and the people behind the test? It would be total gear porn! I'd gladly pay $9.99 on itunes for such a film... and why not give the proceeds to charity? I just love "everybody wins" scenarios!

And by the way... Jim, you said you can't show the Leo footage unless the SAG fees are paid... can we all chip in to get that to happen?

 

[Nathan Garofalos]

What would the price difference in an EPIC with an optical viewfinder vs not?!

 

[JonathanF]

The Academy is really the place for a test like this.

I appreciate that Red Studios has the facilities as well, but the Academy provides a neutral playground for both parties and all the necessary test equipment is there as well.

J

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

What would the price difference in an EPIC with an optical viewfinder vs not?!

At least $20k.

It would be nice to see a test in how the cameras handle Tungsten in various situations as well.

Some whip pans on a grid would be good too.

 

[Jeffrey T. Morgan]

...
Tests should include:

1. Resolution
2. Color
3. Dynamic Range
4. Sensitivity
5. Feel

We would certainly expect the tests to include the Arri dynamic range test, over/under, a zone plate, green screen and tests at high ISO. I would expect the results should be shown at 4k and 1080P. Am I forgetting anything?

Jim

It should run the gammut. Its a bit daunting to the tester, maybe, but I would want to see any and all FRAME RATES (at least 24, 60, and overcranked) on all cameras. As well as any other features they maybe have, including (for those obsessed) an evaluation of the VIEWFINDERS by each expert and on and on. If someone doesn't have the feature, then its a N/A

Also, all should be shot on the SAME LENSES if possible, for baseline. But RED should also do a test with their own RED LENSES, maybe the RPPs?, since they make them, and anyone else who makes lenses can do the same on a second camera.

EDIT - OH! HAND HELD, different races of MODELS, ACTION, STILL LIFE, INDOOR, OUTDOOR, EXISTING LIGHT, DAY, NIGHT.... I know some of these fall into your other categories, Jim, but they are the ways to evaluate aesthetics and more, at least for me.

AND there should probably be SCARLET, RED ONE and EPIC there. (Even if it falls short, how great would it be to see SCARLET go up against a Genesis!?) Personally not so interested in Monstro, etc, if they aren't available. Should all be working production models.

It could be written about, as I am sure so many there will do, but also collected into a DPREVIEW.COM type of comparison chart with commentary.

Jeff

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Also, all should be shot on the SAME LENSES if possible, for baseline. But RED should also do a test with their own RED LENSES, maybe the RPPs?, since they make them, and anyone else who makes lenses can do the same on a second camera.


Jeff

The best option would be new super fast Leica's Mystery primes on the new sensors from RED (M-X) and Arri (Alexa Alev III).

All brand new.

Also we just entered in a new year...

 

[Charles Angus]

They are shooting stuff with a "sensor in a box" ... so that could be used in a comparison.

From what I've seen of Alexa (and Scarlet and Epic, for that matter), "sensor in a box" is in vogue these days.

 

[Dane Brehm]

Important Note Here:

Digital camera systems have two components: Hardware and Software.


Beat me to the punch. Both Camera systems rely on the Hardware/Software relationship in order to manipulate and complete the final image. I deeply care about Hardware, but I personally care more about the Software as this is the tool available to me on the Set.

Since I have seen nothing but "press releases" for ARRI Relativity aka Pixel Strings which is a PC based system. I only hope to not be plagued with "Windows" issues during the use of the Alexa.

I've had a chance to play/test RedCine-X (Alpha, 54, and 84) and am very impressed with the new RED tools. I'm not asking to be tethered to the camera but to have the ability to make adjustments to fan speeds, internal temps readout much like a diagnostics system or "Activity Monitor".

Is this ever in the "roadmap"?

 

[Tom Lowe]

Hi Jim,

What about including a Film camera, there are plenty of 65mm cameras sitting at ARRI. You mentioned RED has recently been compared to 65mm.

Stephen

Lol Stephen, you're not getting a little nervous here for film, are you? I notice that now you want to bring a 65mm film camera to this 35mm comparison shoot. Why not 35mm? :smilewinkgrin:

BTW, wait for Monstro FF35 and then we can set up a proper test against Panavision 65mm.

 

[Jeffrey T. Morgan]

Having played a little with the Arri test rig, and looked at your footage of the MX I'm struck by how close they truly are.

It will come down to ease of use, resolution in post and reliability, not to mention the classic "shooting high speed at the same lens focal length" thing.

....

COST will certainly matter too. it will inform decisions like lenses, cutom builds, and all the other things money effects (read everything).

Jeff

 

[JonathanF]

It could be written about, as I am sure so many there will do, but also collected into a DPREVIEW.COM type of comparison chart with commentary.

DPREVIEW would not be my choice. American Cinematographer would be a more suitable venue. This is not a camera review but a technical review and it requires a publication that is answerable to someone besides it's advertisers.

A camera test is a far larger thing that requires a proper crew work with the camera for a couple days and provide feedback. I have yet to see that on ANY of these camera systems and it's another thing that should be done. I have a pilot coming up and we're testing various systems in live shoot situations with talent. I'll have a DIT, 1st and 2nd on each of those shoots and that's the kind of venue you'd want to use for a camera test. I'm not offering, just saying that's the kind of venue you want for a 'camera test' as opposed to a 'comparative technical review.'

A reputable post facility should also review the post path including the ease of integration with other media (film plates or other digital camera systems). No offense to Hollywood DI but I mean someone LONG established like Technicolor (TDI). Josh Pines would be my first choice for an evaluation of the data in post as he's got the relevant street credibility with the vast majority of us working features for the past decade+. Josh has an Academy Award for his technical contributions to the industry, he's got vast experience with almost every imaginable post workflow and he's one of the most knowledgeable people on color in the business. He also will not blow sunshine up anyone's skirt.

That sort of thing is going to cost and I think both Arri and Red should be willing to make that happen as it's a significant part of any RELEVANT comparison.

Perhaps both parties would submit to having an objective developer in the industry also review their SDK's. Josh again would make a qualified candidate. This way we get a clear picture of how well each company is 'playing nice' with others.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

So does all this mean that there is now a WORKING Epic prototype? Or will the test simply take place usng an R1 with a new sensor?

Jay

 

[Jeffrey T. Morgan]

Any chance to get the test filmed doc style? A mini doc on the process and the people behind the test? It would be total gear porn! I'd gladly pay $9.99 on itunes for such a film... and why not give the proceeds to charity? I just love "everybody wins" scenarios!

...

I was just going to suggest this! It keeps everything honest, plus I would love to be a fly on the wall during the projection and evaluation stage listening to the old dogs hashing it out.

Jeff

 

[Irri]

Since I have seen nothing but "press releases" for ARRI Relativity aka Pixel Strings which is a PC based system. I only hope to not be plagued with "Windows" issues during the use of the Alexa.

Isn't Relativity a completely separate piece of software?

 

[Jeffrey T. Morgan]

DPREVIEW would not be my choice. American Cinematographer would be a more suitable venue. This is not a camera review but a technical review and it requires a publication that is answerable to someone besides it's advertisers...

I didn't say to have DP REVIEW run the test, I said a DP REVIEW STYLE of charts with commentary. Providing a side by side of specs while walkign us through the results.

American Cinematographer and others should be invited to write articles and such, if they want.

I think the actual evaluation will be handled by the public.

But again, I wasn't recommending a DSLR website to review the new line of Motion Picture Cameras. I just like the way their reviews are laid out.

Jeff

 

[Stephen Williams]

Lol Stephen, you're not getting a little nervous here for film, are you? I notice that now you want to bring a 65mm film camera to this 35mm comparison shoot. Why not 35mm? :smilewinkgrin:

BTW, wait for Monstro FF35 and then we can set up a proper test against Panavision 65mm.

35mm is fine by me, I never thought RED One with M sensor looked anything like 65mm, but I am not a famous well respected director.

 

[James Brundige]

At ISO 4000 you won't see a damn thing in an optical view finder. Good digital monitoring blows any optical view finder from the water. Especially with F@#$ LUT, where you can apply your profile to RAW and WYSIWYG. This is what you need. How do you do that with optical VF? Useless as tits on a wombat...:biggrin5:

Agreed, except for leaving out the poor baby wombats.

 

[Stephen Williams]

At least $20k.
.

I can build my own one for less than that.

 

[M Most]

I would humbly suggest waiting with such comparisons until the products actually exist. What one would want to compare would be the Alexa line with the Epic. That means there actually needs to be an Alexa and an Epic, not pre production, non-working prototypes.

I understand Jim's desire to have everyone stand up and take notice of the Mysterium X's capabilities, but I would also say that most people in the industry are already doing that. Since it will likely be more refined and have additional capabilities in the Epic line, it will be more directly comparable to what Arri is trying to do. There is little point in setting up any kind of formal comparison until both products are finished and in shipping condition. Testing prior to product completion and revealing those tests in public is part of what got Red in trouble with some of the mainstream industry early on. It is not fair or sensible to expect Arri to put themselves in a similar position.

 

[Rodrigo Lizana]

Maybe, just for fun, some film stock proposed by jury members?

Then you´d have an only winner. Sorry can´t help it.