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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED alternative....

Chris Parker

Chris Parker

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i have two REDs coming soon (numbers 1363/64), but i have some projects that came in earlier than expected, and need a camera soon (like, two weeks from now). What would you guys recommend for a nice HD camera to tide me over until the REDs get in. I'll either sell the camera after my shoots, or just keep it.

I am thinking panasonic hdx900. Thing is, I am not sure I want a tape-based camera as then I have to get a deck to digitize while on the road (this is a 3 - 4 month long documentary shoot in Europe and Saudi Arabia). Then after the shoot, if I sell the camera and go RED, the HD Deck is also useless to me. So I was wondering if you know of any solid 'card-based' cameras, other than the HVX200 that are comparable to the HDX900 in quality? If you could provide any links or prices, or places to buy, that would also be appreciated.

Thanks.
 
You've also got the Sony Ex1 which goes up to 1080/24p at 1920x1080. That said, it's not really a 'Red alternative.' It's a nice HD camera that shoots nice pictures with a fixed lens. That's not going to make anything like the imagery you can get with 4K and prime lenses. To me a Red alternative would be a 35mm camera, Dalsa Digital Origin, maybe a Sony F23 or a Viper. Even then most are still not 4K.

Noah
 
Disclaimer: I'M not affiliate with Silicon imaging and this post is not disrespect to RED/JIM or RED USER.

SI2k mini would be a good choice. Its more like APPLE's MAC Mini,bring your own keyboard,mouse and display kind of thing. With SI2K Mini you bring your own lens(duh!),processing chip/power,view finder and recording media.

IDEAL Workflow: i suggest you buy the SI Mini, hook up with Apple's new Ultra Portable* with Win XP bootcamp. The touch screen will act as your view finder/menu. i believe the ultra portable is solid state hard drive and you could target recording to external hard drive, remove it after shooting and edit it with FCP.


here is a youtube video of a music video shoot on the mini.i agree youtube is not the best place to watch the footage, but thats the only one i could find right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKlokmPt9JM

p/s: *ultra portable is a speculation only. you could replace it with mac book/pro that you may currently own.(with bootcamp)

p/p/s: i hope scarlet will be something like SI2K mini with price around $5-8K.
 
NoahK said:
You've also got the Sony Ex1 which goes up to 1080/24p at 1920x1080. That said, it's not really a 'Red alternative.' It's a nice HD camera that shoots nice pictures with a fixed lens. That's not going to make anything like the imagery you can get with 4K and prime lenses. To me a Red alternative would be a 35mm camera, Dalsa Digital Origin, maybe a Sony F23 or a Viper. Even then most are still not 4K.
Click to expand...

You forgot the Panavision Genesis, which has been used for perhaps more high end digital production than any other product available. And, no, it's not 4K either, but numbers don't really matter. Results do. And the pictures shot on the Genesis have, in my opinion (and that of a number of very experienced cinematographers), yielded the most "filmic" results of anything out there. It's not only about resolution.
 
Maybe you could go with a Canon XL-H1, and record to a hard drive. Buy a p+s technik and use a couple of primes. That may work. Or instead of p+s technik, you could go with redrock or something else. Check this out, I havent been keeping up on the thread, so it might be sold, but #126 may still be for sale, and you could buy that body for your shoot.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6856
 
If you're looking for a tapeless equivalent to the Panasonic HDX900, then that is the Panasonic HPX2000. It is almost the identical camera but is P2 instead of tape. It actually has a bunch of additional features, and with the optional card can record in the new AVC-intra codec as well as the conventional DVCPROHD format. AVC-i is similar in quality to D5, which is pretty incredible. You could also step up a notch to the Panasonic HPX3000, which is a true 1080p camera with incredible performance. It outperforms the Sony F900R and makes a real run at the F23. I don't know why Panasonic hasn't gotten the kind of attention for it that Sony has for their top of the line cameras. This machine is pretty incredible.

Disclaimer: We're a dealer for Panasonic (as well as Sony and a lot of others) and among a lot of other gear we have the HDX900, HPX2000 and the HPX3000 all available in rental.

Mitch Gross
Technical Director of Rental
Abel Cine Tech
 
mmost said:
You forgot the Panavision Genesis, which has been used for perhaps more high end digital production than any other product available. And, no, it's not 4K either, but numbers don't really matter. Results do. And the pictures shot on the Genesis have, in my opinion (and that of a number of very experienced cinematographers), yielded the most "filmic" results of anything out there. It's not only about resolution.
Click to expand...

You're quite right. I saw a Genesis demo at dvexpo and it was incredible (it made the red footage look like hardcore video) However, like all panavision cameras, it's a rental only solution. 14 week rental would blow anyone out of the water...
 
sparkhope said:
You're quite right. I saw a Genesis demo at dvexpo and it was incredible (it made the red footage look like hardcore video) However, like all panavision cameras, it's a rental only solution. 14 week rental would blow anyone out of the water...
Click to expand...

The Dalsa is also rental only. As is the D20 (which you didn't mention, but it likely belongs in the same group...).

Your comment on cost is true if we're only talking about low budget production. Many features and television productions seem to be able to afford the Genesis just fine.
 
sparkhope said:
You're quite right. I saw a Genesis demo at dvexpo and it was incredible (it made the red footage look like hardcore video) However, like all panavision cameras, it's a rental only solution. 14 week rental would blow anyone out of the water...
Click to expand...

I don't know about that.. Some people think it looks just like video.. some don't obviously.. Have you seen Heima yet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpQ6m2Qf918 It was filmed using a Sony 750 but it looks great.. very "filmic", I think mostly because it was very intelligently filmed and beautifully graded.
I didn't like the Peter Jackson RED 4K footage I saw but then I don't like the cartoon look of any of his movies. I suspect he would have made the genesis or film look much the same.
 
This is a low-budget documentary shoot. Definately don't want the cost/crew size/workflow of a D20 or Dalsa or Genesis. That is why I mentioned something like the HDX900. I have about $40,000 I could spend on a camera. Damn it all, it would be nice to get a fully tricked out RED, but unfortunately, mine aren't ready yet. Not complaining, as I will still be totally happy when mine are ready. But for now, I need another camera for 4 months of work I have to produce in the middle east, and I simply don't want to rent and pay for someone else's camera. My mid-east business could use a camera anyways, and the REDs, when ready, can stay with me here in canada.

i like the hpx500 or the hpx2000 for now.

anyone have any recommendations on where to buy? i am thinking zacuto or abel cine. advice?
 
so... if you are on a budget (but have a budget) it would look something like:

EX1 (fixed lense) 10-bit 4:2:2 through HDSDI. Studio to RAID or field with an AJA IO to ProRes
HPX 500
Silicon Imaging
HPX 2000
(HPX 3000 (If it is out))
F 900
F 23
Rentals only

But I guess you're looking for a rental, as your Reds are coming soon?

Gunleik
 
C.J.Harvaraj said:
Disclaimer: I'M not affiliate with Silicon imaging and this post is not disrespect to RED/JIM or RED USER.

SI2k mini would be a good choice. Its more like APPLE's MAC Mini,bring your own keyboard,mouse and display kind of thing. With SI2K Mini you bring your own lens(duh!),processing chip/power,view finder and recording media.

IDEAL Workflow:... stuff deleted

.
Click to expand...

am curious, what is your current pipeline? how many bits? frame size? what are you using for acquisition and storage? macbook pro?
 
fergus said:
I didn't like the Peter Jackson RED 4K footage I saw but then I don't like the cartoon look of any of his movies. I suspect he would have made the genesis or film look much the same.
Click to expand...

sorry but damn that is FUNNY!!!!!!! PMSL

it's like with george lucas' work, some people wish they could make characters that 2 dimensional. ha ha ha
 
http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/SI_2Kmini_key_features.html

If it wasn't for Red, my guess is SI would be the buzz...

And they have quite a few cams out the door, ... and have done the "but that was really a beta cam" thing, too.

Quite similar in many respects and looks a lot like the cam that was initially announced from Red.

Then, of course, Red went with a 35mm sensor & 4k all the way :)

The cam looks like a charm, though and has 12 bit RAW recording to Cineform on a laptop and those who use it seems at least as happy as the red users. Jason Rodriguez (of SI) and David Newman (of Cineform) are helpfull and service minded helping their customer base daily here, over at dvinfo.net and dvxuser. Really friendly and knowledgeable guys!

Then going OT

There's an underlying something between the two projects which is for the documentary to handle:

1. What made Jim finally denounce Sony publicly (and what made that post disappear?) - OK, not really an SI thing, but who cares?

2. Has CF @ some stage broken a NDA on the red Project, or why else the apparent hostility between projects that (seen from the outside) only can gain from eachothers success and technological development? they look a bit like ex-lovers who really came over it :)

Go write the novel someone! :)

Back on topic...
eh...

nuthin' really!

G

Gunleik
 
2k Mono,16bit,30fps vs 4k Bayer,10bit,24fps

2k Mono,16bit,30fps vs 4k Bayer,10bit,24fps

i posted part of this in the Cineform thread but some of this is applicable here as this is the Off Topic arena.

say i have true 16-bit MONO but is 12-bit effective, same as DCAM Mono 16, NOT packed, (no deBayer or demosaic) at 1920x1080, 30fps.

versus Red @ 4096x2190 10-bit.

the david versus golaith. smaller but much more information versus huge without as much.

so if i work with smaller but more information 2k then scale up to 4k or film, what are benefits of each? or comments?
 
gunleik said:
http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/SI_2Kmini_key_features.html

If it wasn't for Red, my guess is SI would be the buzz...

And they have quite a few cams out the door, ... and have done the "but that was really a beta cam" thing, too.

Gunleik
Click to expand...


i looked at the SI mini as well, but their acquisition system was non existence, they said build get a laptop with these attributes, but trouble was they didnt' exist. you had to get a macbook pro and use bootcamp. their own laptop was heavily modded from Dell. i asked over and over again for drawings, systems specs, pipeline that WORKED, no real answers, that Steve guy was always off at some trade show.... meh...

i think that is why REd announced Scarlet, to pull SI back down, as SI was trying to squeeze more money for their camera and pinch some Red market.
 
gunleik said:
1. What made Jim finally denounce Sony publicly (and what made that post disappear?) - OK, not really an SI thing, but who cares?
Click to expand...

you any copies of this? i'd be interested in a read.
 
No, and I guess it was pulled for a reason. In a day it became one of the most overpopulated threads of speculation, ever...

Basically Jim said: Now I've had it! I'll pull the plug on them!

or something to that regard.

And I guess that's why it's gone :)

It fell nicely into the timeframe when it was suggested that Sony had banned Reds to be used on the next 007 (and any other Sony feature), after some (still rumored) testing on that very production.

You could ask Heath about workflow issues for SI:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109682

This is also the most frequently visited SI forum I see... (than I don't see them all!)

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=129

But then - this is the OT section, right?

G
 
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