Red ADMITS their own cable destroyed my EVF and now they won't fix it!

[Cvilleslacker]

Recently my EVF simply stopped working, giving the error: ‘EVF not selected’ and ‘V.80821b’. I re-installed the firmware and tried various cables to no avail.

Back to Red it went.

After checking in I received an email for the RMA support telling me that there was no physical damage to the EVF but the "VF3-C PCBA" the EVF's main board would need to be replaced, due to what they said was a power issue through the Red cable. They went on to say that the cable must be damaged (which it's not) and that QUOTE: "Typically when this occurs, the same cable could cause issues later down the road with other monitoring components or even the RED One itself."

THERE IS NO WAY TO TEST THE CABLES.

YES PEOPLE, EVEN IF YOU USE THEIR OWN PRODUCTS CORRECTLY TOGETHER THEY CAN DESTROY EACH OTHER, INCLUDING THE RED ITSELF, AND THAT WILL BE YOUR FAULT!

Once again, they sighted no misuse of their product, just that one of their products destroyed another of their products when used together correctly.

HERE'S WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING:

The quote to fix the EVF was over $1400.
I told them that I certainly didn't expect to pay for a new board ($1200 of that $1400) even if it was out of warrantee as this obviously falls under an engineering flaw and / or oversight. I did offer to pay for the labor since someone had to sit there and replace it.

I noted that car companies are always fixing things well after warrantee when there is an oversight in engineering, they are called RECALLS.

AND IN THIS CASE THERE IS AN OBVIOUS OVERSIGHT IN ENGINEERING:
- If it WAS the Red cable then they should have built in something to the EVF and certainly to the Red to make sure their OWN cable won't DESTROY their own product, that's an oversight..
- Since there is no way to test these cables and we are all using them to their own specifications then they should take the responsibility regardless of warrantee, just like a responsible car company.
- I noted that this issue needs to be made public to all Red users so they know the risks that using Red products in the proper fashion poses.

After I sent an email outlining this (and my desire to see the issue made public) they then offered to pay for the labor, but noting that I would still need to pay for the board (I'm still on the fence about their motivation for offering to pay for the labor, as they have not offered any deals in the past).

This is of course unacceptable after they readily have admitted a shortcoming in correctly using their gear.

Jim, if you're reading this please look into it.
And if anyone else has had the same experience, or god forbid had their Red destroyed, feel free to post.

A solid company not only admits when there are shortcomings in it's product (as is the case here) they also go out of their way to fix those shortcomings instead of burying them.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I'm trying to fully understand the situation. Was it ever confirmed by RED that the cable wasn't damaged? You said the cable wasn't damaged. How was that determined? It sounds like what they are referring to is damage in the cable that can short the circuitry and if that's the case not sure where the blame can fall there. If the cable came from RED damaged or wired incorrectly that would be one thing. But if this is something that happened in the field somehow, then not sure one can blame RED for that.

But anyway, I think it's important to be very clear about how the problem developed, and to make sure that the claims against RED can be substantiated, otherwise it's not fair to them and just fuels the PR fire against them.

I also want to be clear that I am not indicating you have done anything wrong, just seems like something we haven't heard about before so as much info as possible is needed to understand the issue or perhaps it's best dealt with directly through RED.

And can you provide your name? Is it C. Villeslacker?

 

[Brent Carter]

Talk about putting words in our mouths. I am even hesitant to reply to this post since you are making so many assumptions and twisting the facts.

The cable worked when we sent it out. Something happened to the cable in the field that damaged the EVF. Period.

If you want to continue the discussion in a meaningful way, you can email me at brent-at-red-dot-com. If you want to continue firing away on REDUSER like your first post, go ahead.

BC

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I see a larger issue here, which is ethical use of the "if you don't do what I want I'll trash you publically" threat. My disdain for corporate tactics is another thread (book?) and there are times the public outing threat is warranted. That said, without knowing all the ins and outs this feels abusive.

Bottom line, don't go public unless you are out of options and be sure you have your facts straight.

Kudos to Brent and the Red Team for not burying this thread, now about that bad attitude exception...

Cheers - #19

 

[Olaf Blomerus]

I totally get your frustration, but this is probably the worst way top get what you want. I'd take Brent up on his offer and really talk about it, not just rant. Ranting / Venting a sure fire way to get yourself as far away from the result you hope for.

Best of luck though, hope it works out in the end.

 

[Johnny Friday]

I'd be curious to know...or ask you the question:
1. How long have you had the EVF & Cable in question?
.....did you JUST receive it? if so, sounds like a case for RED to deal with...but i'm assuming you have had this for over a year and jus now a problem has developed?? Then you must think of all possibilities....others handling your gear/cables etc....

YES, those cables are very finicky and i've destroyed two of them already by bending them....and the contacts coming loose. I've NEVER had one destroy my monitor, but i guess that could happen. BUT, on both the occasions of the RED cables breaking or the wire inside coming loose were my fault for twisting them so many times......one has to see that if in this case it's kind of my fault.....That said, i think the cables SURE COULD use an UPGRADE to take more abuse.......seems like wrapping them up in a circle as i do a lot of my cables....can cause wiring inside of those RED cables to come loose/break. BUT.....c'mon, a year or years later saying RED sent you a defective cable? It did work for how long? and only now the defective cable has destroyed your monitor? I guess i've made assumptions here and should not, but that's what it seems...or maybe you just got a new evf cable last week, plugged it in and your monitor fried ? then i'd assume you have a pretty good case to argue.

 

[Brent Carter]

that QUOTE: "Typically when this occurs, the same cable could cause issues later down the road with other monitoring components or even the RED One itself."

One more thing, Eric. Notice at the bottom of RED emails, it says "This e-mail is the property of RED Digital Cinema Camera Company. It is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise protected from disclosure. Distribution or copying of this e-mail, or the information contained herein, to anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited." Directly quoting communications between RED and you, pretty much falls right under that.

Blair, oh, you have no idea how THRILLED I am when someone uses the "If you don't do x, I will post on REDUSER!" threat. Ironic how blackmail is considered a perfectly acceptable plan to people who feel they have been mistreated.

BC

 

[Cvilleslacker]

This is not a rant folks. And Brent, it's called the complaint department.... and this is my complaint, and I feel like keeping it public to warn other's what DIRECTLY CAME FROM RED'S RMA FOLKS MOUTHS.
Brent, I will make it clear, I did not put these words into your mouths, they came from your people.

"Getting what I want" ie getting it replaced, probably won't happen, but I feel it is important to make other's aware of the possibly that people's Red One's or other gear may be damaged even if the products are used together correctly. (once again Brent, this is from YOUR tech), not from me.

There are no facts twisted here Brent (how could you even CLAIM that??), you can contact Alan in the RMA dept and I'd be happy to send you the emails, all that would be much better then trying to discredit me in the open FIRST. These are valid issues and I expect you as an employee to treat them as such. Best business practices.

Steve, your post is great and I'm happy to address this issue:
As stated in my post there is NO WAY to test these cables as a user (besides knowing that they work on multiple bodies and gear), that being said from Red, there is an obvious engineering flaw which would allow the EVF or (as stated by Red) even the Red One to be damaged without being able to prevent it. THIS IS A RECALL SITUATION, or at least a replace and apologize situation. ALL of the cables we have are working fine on multiple bodies and gear.

Brent, I find it quite telling that you got so worked up about the posting of the situation I'm in. To Blair and anyone else out there: how many times has Red offered to cover service or other fees for you? From all the Red One users I know and all the times they have sent equipment back I can honestly say this is the only time we've heard of that happening... makes ya wonder.

Brent, I'm not looking to get it for free, in the grand scheme of things it's not that much money. I do however think the Red user population deserves to know what might happen to their equipment without warning and without recourse, what can I say, call me a saint...

I'm just letting the users know my experience.

I will not get into a back and forth with you on this. You can act petty: "I am even hesitant to reply to this post" , try to discredit my experience and yell until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that this info came from Red.

Eric Hurt

 

[Cvilleslacker]

One more thing, Eric. Notice at the bottom of RED emails, it says "This e-mail is the property of RED Digital Cinema Camera Company. It is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise protected from disclosure. Distribution or copying of this e-mail, or the information contained herein, to anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited." Directly quoting communications between RED and you, pretty much falls right under that.

BC

Blair, now who's burying it?

 

[Brent Carter]

I read the emails, Eric. I tend to get my facts straight before I post, thanks.

Since you seem to prefer to post instead of emailing me to discuss, I will reach out to you via email.

BC

 

[Cvilleslacker]

Blair, oh, you have no idea how THRILLED I am when someone uses the "If you don't do x, I will post on REDUSER!" threat. Ironic how blackmail is considered a perfectly acceptable plan to people who feel they have been mistreated.

BC

Once again: this is not the "Oh my, what can we say to make Brent happy today page"

Is the "Complaint Dept" now stop being a baby, and if you can't handle complaints perhaps this isn't the page for you.

And Blair, I'm only here giving you a heads up dude... Don't want it for free... While Brent's trying discredit me and bury emails from Red... Full transparency is not his policy it seems.

 

[Cvilleslacker]

I read the emails, Eric. I tend to get my facts straight before I post, thanks.

Since you seem to prefer to post instead of emailing me to discuss, I will reach out to you via email.

BC

Brent, what do we have to talk about? This is what Red said. You all won't pay for it, fine.... I'll pay... but I'm not going to keep my experience quiet dude. Sorry.

 

[Scott Brown]

RED are the fairest company I have EVER come across. In my own experience, they show complete respect for their clients and I cannot for a minute believe that they are being unreasonable on this occasion.

If you have a gripe with RED take it directly to them...this is not the place to trash them!

Scott

 

[Steve Sherrick]

The cable worked when we sent it out. Something happened to the cable in the field that damaged the EVF. Period.

If you want to continue the discussion in a meaningful way, you can email me at brent-at-red-dot-com. If you want to continue firing away on REDUSER like your first post, go ahead.

BC

That's what I figured. Haven't heard about an instance where a new cable had fried any components, so this didn't make sense. A cable that has been out in the field being used can get damaged (love you ACs out there but sometimes it's scary watching you work hastily) and I suppose just the right kind of damage may lead to short circuiting and possible damage to components. So can plugging your camera into a mis-wired outlet, or dropping the EVF on the ground. At that point, it may be up to you and your insurance company to pay for the damages. Like I have mentioned elsewhere, my personal experience with RED is that they have been fair about repairs. In some cases going above and beyond. So, if I came across a situation that I felt was not handled properly by them or I was overcharged/taken advantage of on a repair I would deal with them directly. If that nowhere, then I'd have to make a judgement on whether I would want to be a customer moving forward. Going public probably would never happen unless I was completely out of options and even then I would have to be absolutely certain I was right. There's a lot of harm that can do to both sides, especially if you're wrong.

Anyway, everyone handles things differently so I suppose I'm probably not adding much to the discussion. I was just curious what the OP was talking about because I hadn't heard of this happening with EVF and cables.

 

[Cvilleslacker]

RED are the fairest company I have EVER come across. In my own experience, they show complete respect for their clients and I cannot for a minute believe that they are being unreasonable on this occasion.

If you have a gripe with RED take it directly to them...this is not the place to trash them!

Scott

Posting my experience and complaint in the COMPLAINT DEPARTMENT is not trashing them Scott. The only way your post makes sense is if you think that everyone thinks exactly as you do 100% of the time, which they don't.

 

[Cvilleslacker]

That's what I figured. Haven't heard about an instance where a new cable had fried any components, so this didn't make sense. A cable that has been out in the field being used can get damaged (love you ACs out there but sometimes it's scary watching you work hastily) and I suppose just the right kind of damage may lead to short circuiting and possible damage to components. So can plugging your camera into a mis-wired outlet, or dropping the EVF on the ground. At that point, it may be up to you and your insurance company to pay for the damages. Like I have mentioned elsewhere, my personal experience with RED is that they have been fair about repairs. In some cases going above and beyond. So, if I came across a situation that I felt was not handled properly by them or I was overcharged/taken advantage of on a repair I would deal with them directly. If that nowhere, then I'd have to make a judgement on whether I would want to be a customer moving forward. Going public probably would never happen unless I was completely out of options and even then I would have to be absolutely certain I was right. There's a lot of harm that can do to both sides, especially if you're wrong.

Anyway, everyone handles things differently so I suppose I'm probably not adding much to the discussion. I was just curious what the OP was talking about because I hadn't heard of this happening with EVF and cables.

Very well put Steve.
And to that end, the fact here is that it wasn't plugged into a power outlet, or dropped. It was plugged into the Red, which destroyed it, as said by Red.

Once again: not expecting it for free... just posting my COMPLAINT in the COMPLAINT DEPARTMENT.

 

[Cvilleslacker]

Anyway everyone, that's the facts and you can do what you will with them, argument's over.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

One more thing, Eric. Notice at the bottom of RED emails, it says "This e-mail is the property of RED Digital Cinema Camera Company. It is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise protected from disclosure. Distribution or copying of this e-mail, or the information contained herein, to anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited." Directly quoting communications between RED and you, pretty much falls right under that.

That's not a customer friendly policy.

Further, while I am not a lawyer, courts have held that such blanket disclosures sent on every email have no force.

In other words, you should only attach some language like that when you are in fact sending something that you really need to keep private.

And mostly you shouldn't use email for anything you want to keep private without using some sort of encryption or signature system.

Blair, oh, you have no idea how THRILLED I am when someone uses the "If you don't do x, I will post on REDUSER!" threat. Ironic how blackmail is considered a perfectly acceptable plan to people who feel they have been mistreated.

BC

Ha! Its a way to get some attention, and frankly Red shouldn't care.

Bottom line is that Red is a solid company and you guys usually do the right thing and then go the extra mile for your customers. Just being a "stand up company" is the best way to deal with that ... just look at the other replies here.

As to this guy ... his entire email sounds not credible. I get his frustration, but I'm not sure I can trust anything he's saying - I only trust that he genuinely feels wronged. He's also unneccesarily nasty - he could have communicated all he did that more politely.

Now, there is value in his sharing ... it brings some issues out that I'd ask Red to address.

Firstly ... I'd love to see a Red cable tester. I'd like to be able to ensure that a Red cable is working properly and that it won't damage an EVF or Red body or whatever. Something very cheap under $100 would be great. Hopefully it can test all the Red cable types. Based on what little I know, simple continuity testing would probably ensure this to a reasonable standard ... but hey you guys engineer the gear - you tell me what's smart. You can use big technical words if you like, I'll understand you!

Second, why is this possible? Why isn't there some hardware that can prevent this sort of damage in the camera/evf whatever? If nothing else, you could probably drop a relatively simple fuse system in place and at least dramatically reduce the cost of a repair. Maybe such a system already exists, but in this case there was too much power surging or some such? Now that this is being talked about I want to know more.

Third, has Red given any thought to a manufacturers extended warranty? I'm on the razor's edge fiscally, and while I can budget for a warranty/maintenance contract, I can't budget for a $1400 repair on a $3000 part. "RedCare" would probably be a good thing to offer for sale, especially as you guys expand past highly trained and experienced film pros into "the masses."

Last, has Red ever given any thought to a system that sends out "loaner" parts when something is in for repair? There has to be a system that would work for both Red and users who need their gear. I mean aside from hoping you can rent locally.

As always, thanks for your time and thanks for being ... well for being as cool as Red.

 

[axel ebermann]

To bring this discussion into a more fruitful direction:

Unfortunately - like with all cable of that kind, the little connectors inside the cable plugs
can be bent and / or damaged if the cables are not stored, handled or transported properly.

I am very aware of that and usually store my viewfinder and monitor cables with bubble wrap around the ends when transporting them.
I am also very careful when plugin the cables into my camera so the pins do not get damaged.

This is not meant to say who is wrong or right in this heated discussion - but to point out a way how problems like that can be avoided.

cheers

axel

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Very well put Steve.
And to that end, the fact here is that it wasn't plugged into a power outlet, or dropped. It was plugged into the Red, which destroyed it, as said by Red.

I'm definitely not saying that you did either of those, perhaps a bad analogy. I was mostly saying that if the cable was damaged after delivery somehow, then it becomes an insurance issue.

Eric, I don't know you and I learned long ago never to judge anyone without knowing the full story, so not going to judge you or what happened with your EVF. I do encourage you to work with RED on this. If for some reason you are not satisfied with the results, then that becomes a decision for you moving forward. I find Brent can be very reasonable, but it might require interfacing with him off line.

Hopefully this gets resolved amicably and you remain a happy RED customer. And again, sorry if I'm not adding much here. I'm waiting for a long render to finish.