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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Accessories - Sexy vs. Crappy

The cast parts have a large inital outlay of cash...in the order of $50,000 to $150,000 for the tooling per part. Not to mention the actual cost of the parts. Not "cheap" by any means.
 
Two things:
1) Your estimation of initial cost seems a tad high, given the size and complexity of the parts, but regardless of that,
2) why do you think RED chose to cast the parts and not machine them...that's right: cost reduction.
Of course they might come back and say they can produce more in a shorter time using casting,as opposed to machining.

As with all manufacturing, ways to reduce self-cost will always be sought. Unfortunately for RED, they chose to start shipping items that not only look different than what's "advertised" on the web, but also have [apparently] tolerance issues.
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
I need to take a closer look at mine.. I don't think it looks like this. When did the part you photographed ship?

Jay
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Jay,

The photo I attached is from Mike Curtis' post in HD for indies, that was referenced in a thread about the drive cable.

Look here http://provideocoalition.com/index.p...ing_part_1/P4/

I just thought it was a good example of what's been shipping lately. His Red is #417.

The original production run of accessories were machined aluminum and then anodized. Later parts are cast. As they run out of machined parts, they supply cast parts. Unfortunately, the cast parts have a very different anodized finish than the machined parts. I don't know why this would be the case, unless they used different suppliers, or the process is different. But in any case, the finish on the cast parts is inferior to the machined ones.

I don't have an issue with cast parts per se, as long as they are anodized properly and fit and function to spec.

But it sounds like there are QC issues with the casting process (fit issues) and the anodization process leaves a lot to be desired in terms of appearance and durability.

I would like the option of being able to order machined parts that match what is posted on the site, and what earlier reservation owners received, vs. what is being delivered currently. I'd say I'm willing to pay extra for that, but then I stop and go... wait a minute... why SHOULD we have have to pay extra when others got the nicer accessories for the same price? Plus, these accessories aren't cheap (granted the production pack is a bargain in terms of the package price vs. individual items) but if you end up tossing the base because it's not Arri compatible, wobbles and breaks, the handles don't grip, the side handles pop off, and you want lighter rods (ET), the only accessories that start to look desirable are the top handle and extension, and the cradle. But when the cradle looks like this, I start looking for alternatives.

Bummer. I wanted to get the production pack, left handle, quick plate, side handles etc... but with the current finish and QC issues, I think I'll pass.

I hate to feel like I'm bitching, 'cause I love the camera and what Red is doing. I just want a top notch kit and these parts aren't cutting it.


M
 
C'mon RED...fess up!

I will be quite ticked off if i get all my accessories and they are as bad as people are making out. I just paid for my camera this week including thousands of dollars on accessories and have been waiting for over a year like most and can't believe this could be true. Not machined, not the same as pics in store, not fitting, no quality inspection before being sent out. If this is true well a thumbs down to RED. They may have a great Camera and be delivering great things with imagery but if this is the case with many $$$$ of accessories well....I'm a believer in quality and would happily wait out or buy elsewhere for accessories when they are available. The RED is such an awesome piece of technology and accomplishment, why put it in bed with poor fitting equipment!

But heh, i'll report back when we get ours! No point in slamming a nail in if it's not the case! The camera rocks...and this is the main thing! The service to date and information and communication from our man at RED has been great, even letting us know what is not available yet for our order and that the only imperial lenses are ready not metric, so, I have no evidence that anything is adfrift so i'll keep backing them with everything until or if i get scorched. C'mon RED!
 
bris-vegas said:
C'mon RED...fess up!

I will be quite ticked off if i get all my accessories and they are as bad as people are making out. I just paid for my camera this week including thousands of dollars on accessories and have been waiting for over a year like most and can't believe this could be true. Not machined, not the same as pics in store, not fitting, no quality inspection before being sent out. If this is true well a thumbs down to RED. They may have a great Camera and be delivering great things with imagery but if this is the case with many $$$$ of accessories well....I'm a believer in quality and would happily wait out or buy elsewhere for accessories when they are available. The RED is such an awesome piece of technology and accomplishment, why put it in bed with poor fitting equipment!

But heh, i'll report back when we get ours! No point in slamming a nail in if it's not the case! The camera rocks...and this is the main thing! The service to date and information and communication from our man at RED has been great, even letting us know what is not available yet for our order and that the only imperial lenses are ready not metric, so, I have no evidence that anything is adfrift so i'll keep backing them with everything until or if i get scorched. C'mon RED!
Click to expand...

Red is offering accessories at an affordable price. You can also find other companies that are working with Red like Element Technica which make high quality parts. If you want machined parts, you could always have someone machine them for you.

I'm not saying I wouldn't love all my parts to come machined, but I see the base production pack as a hold over until things can be further developed for the Red, by Red and other companies. I'd much rather Red focus on the camera and sensor and workflow over the accessories.
 
Most film accessories are made in very low quantities. They are also made with absolutely no regard to cost. If there is a better way to make them, they'll be made in the better way. Period. When there are only a few dozen [or, in some cases, a few hundred] camera bodies to put your accessories on, you do what you need to do. Even if they wanted to cast accessories, it just wouldn't make sense.

RED will likely ship at least 5,000 basic production packs this year. They're trying to get them out fast, they're trying to get them made inexpensively and they're trying to make a profit in the process. I'm sure they were selling the machined accessories at nearly cost [or at a loss] in tooling costs. Machining parts gets expensive, and selling those parts for prices as low as RED has been just wasn't going to continue.

I always thought it was a given that they'd be cast eventually. They aren't trying to screw people and they aren't trying to make a quick buck. Their customer service has been top-notch for me.

Anyway, my point is... they're not trying to pull a fast one and slip cast accessories out to those that wouldn't know better.

If RED's accessories aren't up to snuff for you... don't buy RED's accessories. It's a simple solution.

Now there obviously are problems; hell, RED has admitted to problems with batches of accessories. Their quality control seems nonexistent at times. But I bet you they make it right in the end.
 
All fair comments, Brook.

Although:
... they're not trying to pull a fast one and slip cast accessories out to those that wouldn't know better.
Click to expand...

Actually that's EXACTLY what they're doing (until Monday when they'll update the website, I'm sure) if they show one thing online, and ship another; i.e. the picture online at the RED store CLEARLY shows MACHINED parts, and then when one receives the parts, they are cast (and by your own definition, LESS VALUABLE). :huh:
 
It's also the consistency. My camera is a hodge podge of both. Ever part that comes in a pair is cast then machined. Any pro in the LA area has been saying,"why don't your handles match?" Well.......

I know that RED has done the impossible and the camera is awesome so you can't win everything the first time around. Like Brook said I'm sure they will do right in the end.

Build 15, a nikon mount, and/or my EVF sure would qualm our bitching though. :)
 
Actually wooden body would be nice... then your red could most likely float... unless you shoot the Optimo. :blink:
 
Brook Willard said:
Anyway, my point is... they're not trying to pull a fast one and slip cast accessories out to those that wouldn't know better.
Click to expand...

I think you are wrong on this one Brook, it is wrong for any company to sell items stating they are one thing but end up being another. It was totally up to RED on what they priced their items at as well as their build. If they have found they cannot produce these items at their cost and delivery schedule it is THEIR responsibility to either change their specs on their website and/or inform ALL future and current customers that things have changed. I think you are mistaken with all their products being low cost, the vast majority yes but not all. RED has been very forthcoming with changes to RED ONE but have not in their accessories area. Even not mentioning the significant problems they are apparently having with ill-fitting or poorly designed accessories they should have and currently inform people of this. Do not get me wrong though, i still want everything i ordered as i need them all, i just seriously hope the components do what they are supposed to, even if they look like crap and make the whole rig look...well...i havn't got mine yet. And i support RED with all they are doing no question, but as they have stated time after time they want and need feedback. And in this case it is a big quality and customer issue. The difference between cast and machined is big. An email or online update is the only way any business should operate...no question. As i said C'mon RED! These things are pretty basic to do and takes only minutes! You guys rock with what you are doing and are extremely forthcoming so why would this be different.

By the way, if i'm wrong and RED have indeed stated this officially or emailed customers or similar, please point this out to me and inform me of when and where and i'll eat my words and go about my day.
 
We have both versions of most items. One of the problems with the matte finish of the cast items is that you have to tighten them to fit them in place and loosen them to alter their position. The glossier machined version by comparison can be tightened to a degree that they can still be repositioned and remain tight. If they had quick release on them it wouldn't matter quite so much but having to mess about with different sized allen keys on set is a real pain.

Paul
 
kinobairn said:
Red is offering accessories at an affordable price. You can also find other companies that are working with Red like Element Technica which make high quality parts. If you want machined parts, you could always have someone machine them for you.

I'm not saying I wouldn't love all my parts to come machined, but I see the base production pack as a hold over until things can be further developed for the Red, by Red and other companies. I'd much rather Red focus on the camera and sensor and workflow over the accessories.
Click to expand...

I would like machined parts too, and that is what i ordered and paid for. That is THE point.

I would like to focus their efforts on the camera/workflow also, but there is a difference between no or little information and mis-information.

Again, if i am wrong and this has been stated somewhere please let me know so i can go off quietly after an apology to RED. And don't forget, i havn't got my camera or anything yet (hopefully only days now) and i am only going off information posted by others...as most of us are!
 
I share the same concerns as everyone else. I’ve never done any kind of engineering so don’t really know the processes, but is there any reason why the cast parts can’t be anodized in the same way. Is it just about cost? Do economies of scale not come into it when you’re making 1000’s of them?

For me it’s not about having sexy looking accessories, but the finish does reflect on build quality. If I’m brutally honest the picture Mark posted looks like a 20 year old component that’s had the rust removed. I hope it’s just a very unflattering photo, I really do.

I have a $600 Redrock follow focus sat in front of me, which has an excellent quality finish. So I can’t believe it purely comes down to cost. If it does, change the prices not the build quality. Everyone knows things are subject to change.

David Litchfield
 
PaulClements said:
If they had quick release on them it wouldn't matter quite so much but having to mess about with different sized allen keys on set is a real pain.

Paul
Click to expand...

Hang on - try moving a magazine from top to bottom or battery mount on any other camera - you'd need a lot more than just a couple of allan keys.
 
markp said:
Hang on - try moving a magazine from top to bottom or battery mount on any other camera - you'd need a lot more than just a couple of allan keys.
Click to expand...

Thats all well and good and I agree, but when we have two red cameras on the same shoot and to alter one's setup is easier than the other it's just a bit annoying.

Paul
 
In retail sales, a bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the fraudster lures in customers by advertising a product or service at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute is. The goal of the bait-and-switch is to convince some buyers to purchase the substitute good as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait, or as a way to recover sunk costs expended to try to obtain the bait. It suggests that the seller will not show the original product or product advertised but instead will demonstrate a more expensive product
Click to expand...

This practice is illegal in many states under their CONSUMER PROTECTION laws
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thats what i think about the whole situation. just update the store, send an email or something.
 
Brook Willard said:
If RED's accessories aren't up to snuff for you... don't buy RED's accessories. It's a simple solution.
Click to expand...

NO. BS.

When RED switched to cast parts, RED should've changed the website pics to match. Period. Jim is not poor. RED is not poor. F that mentality.

Show what you sell and deliver what you sell. Don't give me, us, that line of BS that if you don't like, don't buy. They advertise certain parts, deliver certain parts.

I guarantee Jim is out shooting with the exact parts pictured on the store's website, if not something none of us have ever seen. If they're not shipping those same parts out - they should, and can, update their site.

This is, IMO, the BIGGEST issue/problem RED has thrown on its customers to date.

Should I receive inferior parts, I will return, and return until I receive what is advertised.

Please don't misunderstand me - I love RED and everything they stand for. Their customer service is unbelievable in this day and age of farming out to other countries - But, I firmly believe that website neglect (staying up to date) is inexcusable. If you're gonna show certain items "for sale" - then deliver those items as shown. If you can't, update.
 
This discussion creates quite a confusion. Jim has always emphasized good business practices relying on confidence. Recently this was even highlighted when there was the hazzle of the piece of software transforming r3d-files to avi-files.

From the customers point of view the images on the web store are Red's promise to the customers. The only possible interpretation is, what you see is what you'll get. It's alarming if Red has silently changed this interpretation. Especially, this put Jim's words of trust in strange position.

So, I agree with many others. Red should be fair to its customers with the accessories.
 
I agree, the parts should not have been changed without notifying the customers. This is so NOT RED. It just does not feel right.

I would suggest that RED offer a refund or exchange policy for those who are not satisfied with the accessories that are not as advertised on the site or do not function up to par, such as the baseplate/dovetail.

RED has it's hands full with all of the development of new products for this year's NAB, and I am cheering them on 100%, but I also feel this is important enough to speak up about and hopefully RED will offer an alternative in the near future and make this right.
 
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