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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red 4x5" Back - PLEASE!

Shane Betts

Shane Betts

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I know I may sound like a broken record here (OK, a CD with a fingerprint) but Red just HAS TO build us a 4x5 digital back with RedCode. I love large format shooting but film is leaving us and the choices for genuine large format digital shooting are zero! Spend a fortune on a Phase One or Sinar back and you get medium format at best.

Imagine a 4x5 Mega-Monstro sensor with a 4x5 LCD screen on the back and a CF card slot. It just needs to capture, compress and save. RAW compression would make it actually possible to shoot large format digital and, if I read Jim right, Red (rightfully) has that tied up in a tidy little bow. That means you're it guys. Please, please, please, please, please! Just imagine it!
 
I think this stuff is inevitable, considering Jim's initial musings of brains of several sensor sizes, all the way up to that mammoth 617 thing. It's clear he values stills as much as motion picture capture. At some point lenses are going to start becoming the hurdle to overcome, but I think there will be a demand. Not sure I would want a camera that shoots natively in a 4x5 ratio (just because that's a common option up until now doesn't mean it has to be a standard moving forward), but bigger sensors are clearly the next logical step in the persuit of image capturing excellence. I'm wondering what size monstro will be at first... perhaps "dragon" is the upgradable s35 variant with a new FF brain to follow?
 
I just picked up a Schneider 90mm Super Angulon on eBay for under $300. New price for that glass is over $5,000. My Cambo monorail cost me $125! There's so much high quality "outdated" gear out there. The reason I'm hoping for 4x5 is because it would (or should) work with the legions of legacy gear out there. There doesn't need to be a new format or a new camera - we need a sensor we can attach to what we already have. Well, that's what I'm waiting for:-) Hope I live to see the day...
 
I kinda agree it's inevitable and kinda not. I know it doesn't seem in Jim's or Red's makeup to sit on laurels, but we have been virtually stuck shooting on miniature format now for so long when, before digital came along, most non-sport/photojournalist style pros would never have been caught dead shooting 35mm. Man, I copped enough flack for shooting 6x4.5 instead of 6x7. Granted, the image quality from DSLRs is awesome but imagine what that kind of technology could look like in large format. And don't forget the many other advantages of view cameras over SLRs. I think it would be mind blowing! I just would like it to be two or three years away, not 10 or 20.
 
Hi Shane, you are talking about the Epic 645, which was announced three years ago, it is probably still being developed.

Some specs from back then

Epic645, monstro sensor, pixel size 6.0 microns, 16bit, 13+ stops, sensor area 56 x 42 mm, width 9K, total pixels 9334x7000, 65 Megapixels, redcode 225, 50fps max framerate full size.
 
Hey Erik. Nope, that's not the one (but a step in the right direction). You're talking centimetres, I'm talking inches. Stills guys know what I'm talking about. Large format as distinct from medium format. And I wouldn't expect it to do motion at all. Waaaayyyy too much data. But one frame every couple of seconds would be huge. Without RedCode you'd be talking minutes per frame. Without RedCode this kinda thing is a pipe dream but with it it's possible.

BTW, love the quote in your signature. So true!
 
Nothing beats a 4x5 sheet of Fuji (don't even mention 8x10) and if film does completely disappear from the factories, then digital technology is really taking us a big step back. Stitching is not a viable or honest option. Somebody has to take that leap forward to develop a digital back of some sort that equals large format technology and has to be affordable enough that you can buy a trade journal off the rack at Barnes & Noble.
 
Paul Russell said:
I can pickup old Mamiya R67 lenses for peanuts over here. It would be great to be able to use them on a movie camera.
Click to expand...
Not sure they'd be fast enough for movie work but, given the amazing quality of images we get from DX sized Red cameras, can you imagine what a 6x7 or 4x5 inch sensor would give us? OMG! Last film camera I sold off was a Mamiya 7. Now that's what I want from a Fuji or NEX.
 
Joe Taylor said:
Nothing beats a 4x5 sheet of Fuji (don't even mention 8x10) and if film does completely disappear from the factories, then digital technology is really taking us a big step back. Stitching is not a viable or honest option. Somebody has to take that leap forward to develop a digital back of some sort that equals large format technology and has to be affordable enough that you can buy a trade journal off the rack at Barnes & Noble.
Click to expand...

My point exactly. And who better than the guys who own RedCode?

One thing I'm playing with at the moment Joe is stitching DSLR images taken with my Cambo. So stitched but all taken on the same plane. Organic lens quirks like falloff and flares stitch along with image details. Trying to work out how to get the entire 4x5 image this way but right now I'm getting maybe 60% of the image - and infinity focus is an issue.
 
Lenses are going be the big factor. Before going digital, I shot 4x5 for 20 years. I've been shooting a Phase One 60mp since '09 and the old "Film" lenses just weren't up to snuff. I tested my old Rodenstock 90mm against their new 90mm HR Digaron. The difference is huge. To really take advantage of that much resolution you really need the new Digital Formula lenses. Unfortunately most of them don't cover 4x5 since they were formulated for MFDB's.

As for holding out with film... I did a little test during my transition: 4x5 Ektachrome 100 Daylight (EPN) against a P1 P45+ (39mp). I scanned the chrome with a drum scanner at 4k dpi and printed both 24x30. The back blew the chrome away. Sharpness, detail, dynamic range, color fidelity... there was no contest.

I used to have cases of chrome and polaroid Fed Ex'd to locations on long shoots.

I so do not miss film!

LoL.

But yeah... a 4x5 Red Sensor with suitable lenses would be a dream come true...
 
Ditto, to a large format digital back, 4x5 ....

"Stitching is not a viable or honest option".

Not sure what you mean by honest, in this context, but stitching is a great option (until a larger sensor is available). But that is up to the individual and depends on their subject matter and approach.
Stitching - digital imaging - can leave 4X5 or 8X10 film in the dust, as they say. Just try cutting out a 35mm film portion from your Super Angulon etc. and enlarge it and compare it with a 35mm digital image.... No contest.
Not to mention the far superior control over your subject that stitching allows: the lens no longer dictates depth of field limitations, highlights no longer dictate shadow values, and so on.
Stitching: the controls and freedoms over subject matter conducive to large format photography is approaching that of the painter. As well as enjoying the advantages of a large format single exposure,
I would be as likely to employ stitching with 4x5 too. Very happily.
 
I think, once we're there, there will be folk who, like now with old Lomos on their Epics, may choose older lenses for the organic feel. But, yeah, a range of new digital large format lenses would be required to really take advantage.
 
Christopher Barrett said:
Lenses are going be the big factor. Before going digital, I shot 4x5 for 20 years. I've been shooting a Phase One 60mp since '09 and the old "Film" lenses just weren't up to snuff. I tested my old Rodenstock 90mm against their new 90mm HR Digaron. The difference is huge. To really take advantage of that much resolution you really need the new Digital Formula lenses. Unfortunately most of them don't cover 4x5 since they were formulated for MFDB's.

As for holding out with film... I did a little test during my transition: 4x5 Ektachrome 100 Daylight (EPN) against a P1 P45+ (39mp). I scanned the chrome with a drum scanner at 4k dpi and printed both 24x30. The back blew the chrome away. Sharpness, detail, dynamic range, color fidelity... there was no contest.

I used to have cases of chrome and polaroid Fed Ex'd to locations on long shoots.

I so do not miss film!

LoL.

But yeah... a 4x5 Red Sensor with suitable lenses would be a dream come true...
Click to expand...


Schneider newer Digitar lenses for larger digital format are really mind blowing. Absolutely worth a go.

Ta.

Eric
 
Shane Betts said:
I think, once we're there, there will be folk who, like now with old Lomos on their Epics, may choose older lenses for the organic feel. But, yeah, a range of new digital large format lenses would be required to really take advantage.
Click to expand...

Hey Bruce...

Ive been a bit cheeky..
I still have all my old P2 10x8 inche gear and 5x4 inche P2, all the Rodenstock and Sinar lenses from 24mm to 400mm. Awesome glass to look at...

The cheeky bit is I have stuck a few of these lens onto a new lens board and have used them on my EPIC... hehehehehe... They sit miles away from the sensor on a PL bellows.. I'm getting some amazing images from them.
But I doupt I'll get the full potential unless RED did bring out a 5x4 BACk.. But the 645 sensor would work out great!.
I also have a Hasselelad lens kit working on my EPIC through a Century bellows system... Ive got coverage well out past 20k.

If you are an old photographer purist like myself, You'd love it!, If you floating around Brisbane one day, when I'm in the country, Ill show you someday. :) Here is a pic of the Medium format 6x6 inche glass :)

Med_format_glass.jpg
 
Not sure if you have seen this yet, but someone's done this for an 8x10 camera already (single shot back). Albeit only 10MP, but it is a single chip system.

From what I understand, he commissioned the manufacture of two of them, at a cost of several hundred thousand dollars. They're intended to be a replacement for shooting 8x10 Polaroids on set, as that size Polaroid film is no longer available. He still shoots final art on film.

Here's an interview with the photographer Mitch Feinberg about his digital back, the Maxback: http://jdheinphotography.wordpress....-8×10-digital-capture-back-by-a-photo-editor/

Maxback-Feinberg.jpeg
 
Mike Isler said:
Not sure if you have seen this yet, but someone's done this for an 8x10 camera already (single shot back). Albeit only 10MP, but it is a single chip system.

From what I understand, he commissioned the manufacture of two of them, at a cost of several hundred thousand dollars. They're intended to be a replacement for shooting 8x10 Polaroids on set, as that size Polaroid film is no longer available. He still shoots final art on film.

Here's an interview with the photographer Mitch Feinberg about his digital back, the Maxback: http://jdheinphotography.wordpress....-8×10-digital-capture-back-by-a-photo-editor/

Maxback-Feinberg.jpeg
Click to expand...

Awesome! After what he's spent on this company so far, those numbers shouldn't frighten Jim that much :crazy: With great power comes great responsibility.:ihih:
 
Hijacking my own thread here but I'm looking at Sony's NEX7 and drooling for this whole in-view-cam stitching thing. 24MP per DX shot, tiny, flat camera which should help get focussed further from the camera and allow me to get more of the image. I'm thinking that if I shoot 4x5 on an 8x10, I'll be able to fit my stitching camera inside the rear standard and address all the problems.

Here's the device that got me started:4x5 adaptor to Canon mount.
 
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