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recorder/mixer purchase for documentary work

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WesG

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Hi everyone,

Going around in circles trying to decide on the purchase of some audio kit.

Work as a Director/DP on our Epic and previously we have either had a dedicated sound recordist (great!) or for simple one person interviews my assistant manages audio directly into the Epic with a wireless lav and wired shotgun.

Have a documentary shot coming up that will require two person interviews, often on the move. Looking to set up my assistant with a mixer/recorder so that we can have both talent with wired lavs and assistant can boom a shotgun mic when possible i.e. he's being asked to be a soundo in amongst everything else. Unfortunately there's not the budget/opportunity to bring an additional crew member dedicated for sound - only two of us the whole shot.

Looking for a quality, but easiest solution possible to mix and record sound on the fly, ideally back into the Epic.

This initial production is low budget, but I can see us benefitting from having a mixer/recorder in future work.

It seems we could try a lower budget option such as the Roland R-44 - pebble buy another wireless set to get audio back into the Epic.
OR
at the other end is blow the bank and buy a Zaxcom Max system with the wireless transmission feature build it and buy a receiver for on the Epic. This seems like the rolls royce and would be a big spend - particular once converted to Australian dollars.

Aside from that there does;t seem to be a logical in between. Really need easy of use in terms of weight, power and functionality - and easy of capturing decent quality audio.

Unlike cameras it seems the more you spend on kit potentially the less skill it takes to capture quality audio??

Be great to hear you thoughts/recommendations. Been researching heaps and have to push the button on something soon

cheers
wes
 
Hey Wes,

I'm in exact same boat as you for my next doc project as well.

I'm trying to keep the budget down as much as possible but this is the basic list of a setup I'm looking at:

Zoom F8 Recorder
2x Tentacle Syncs
2x shotgun mics
3x sennheisers G3 wireless lavs
1x Tascam Recorder

Plus accessories like boom pole, cables, media and batteries.


Decided to go with Zoom F8 because it absolutely has all the features of a more expensive Recorder but at only $1000. It even has an app where you can control the mixing levels on a tablet or phone. It also has timecode.

The way I'm planning to film two people talking is by going wireless lav on each and a sound/PA on boom recording them into Zoom.

The zoom will send a guide track out through another wireless to the epic. The epic will also have another shotgun mic attached recording scratch and ambient sounds.

The Tentacle Syncs will be used to match timecode. I have to test if the Syncs will be used as masters or if Zoom F8 can be the master timecode and Syncs match to that.

The extra Tascam Recorder is for such cases if we end up at an event that may have a PA system, that'll be hooked up to that and set to record whatever goes through the PA and event mics all day.

In that scenario, the Zoom will have to be the master timecode and Tentacles would send matching timecode to the camera and Tascam.

With this setup, each piece of gear is also a backup to another piece of gear. Also the kit itself has room for expansion without having to buy anything else.

Such as if I had three people instead of two, I already have three wireless lavs to use. Or even three lavs and two boompole/shotguns going into Zoom. In that case, I'm dependent on having proper Timecode sync since I won't have scratch/guide audio on the camera.
 
For what it's worth, here is my setup. I made the decision to limit my audio to two mics through camera because that's about all I can honestly manage during an interview and it just so happens to be the limit of the Epic brain's inputs without adding on. If I need anything more, I'm calling a sound guy.

I am very happy with the Sound Devices MixPre-D. It has everything I want and does it perfectly. I put some velcro on top for one or two Lectrosonic receivers, which allows me to either use lavs or boom(s) depending on the setup. Most of the time for interviews it's hardwired straight from the mic(s) into the MixPre. The MixPre is quick-release mounted onto the top handle with an Element Technica V-Lock.

69me0x.jpg
 
One ting to consider is Timecode and the facile way Zaxnet can send Tc to a calibrated ERX and thence to Dragon/EpicX/Scarlet, as well as one scratch audio track, through custom cables ( I have a few spares). Really convenient and mow that multiple ERX's can be calibrated easily to the TC Nomad's source, for example, as kit and cameras grow in numbers, the process stays basically just what is already in your hands...

Thank you very much

Fury
 
Nick Fury said:
One ting to consider is Timecode and the facile way Zaxnet can send Tc to a calibrated ERX and thence to Dragon/EpicX/Scarlet, as well as one scratch audio track, through custom cables ( I have a few spares). Really convenient

Fury
Click to expand...
Thanks Fury, the Zaxnet system is awesome but I'm really struggling to justify the dollars - but love the convenience.
Would you say a higher end mixer such as the Zaxnet Max actually makes recording sound easy for the inexperienced. With some of the high dynamic range features etc it seems that investing more could make life easier and sound recording simpler.

I made the decision to limit my audio to two mics through camera because that's about all I can honestly manage during an interview and it just so happens to be the limit of the Epic brain's inputs without adding on. If I need anything more, I'm calling a sound guy.
Click to expand...
I hear yu, that's our usual take and we don't even use a mixer but ride the levels within the Epic. But once you have two people on camera with laws, then you need a boom and thats three channels... boom! more toys required!

Decided to go with Zoom F8
Click to expand...
It looks good value. Unfortunately going to have to order a solution in the next few days.

cheers
wes
 
Wes, I think you should not count on the Zoom's clock to stay consistent. Jam both tentacle units to same source.. put one to feed the recorder, and one to feed the camera.
The price point makes the F8 look very interesting to smaller production units, but it does have a few compromises made to hit the price point.
Among these is the interface.
Because it is so compact, it is not as easy to do your on the fly level controls as some of the higher priced options.

I have not conducted time code trials, but it is a very common thing for sound professionals to keep a master clock in their setup to feed their SD or Zaxcom recorders, and jam syncboxes to that. following this protocol would be a very safe way to have sync between a lower priced recorder and your camera.

However, the F8 may be a decent option for you.

In Re: your other point, higher end gear may have a learning curve, but it is intended to make mixing simpler for all users, even more experienced ones.
And experience is knowledge and skill learned from practice.
 
Roger Singh said:
Decided to go with Zoom F8 because it absolutely has all the features of a more expensive Recorder but at only $1000. It even has an app where you can control the mixing levels on a tablet or phone. It also has timecode.
Click to expand...
The Zoom F8's pots are impossible to operate by normal-size humans. This is a "set and forget" box where you can't actively ride levels. Judging by past Zoom products, I'm suspicious of the quality of their preamps.

You could get a used Sound Devices 744t that actually does real timecode, has great preamps, knobs that are big enough to grab (albeit barely), and extremely good reliability. The SD 633 would be a step up, but costs more (and is an ideal interview recorder). I continue to be astonished by people who have $40,000 invested in a Red Camera and a couple of lenses but won't spent $4K on audio. Sadly, you often get what you pay for.
 
Marc Wielage said:
The Zoom F8's pots are impossible to operate by normal-size humans. This is a "set and forget" box where you can't actively ride levels. Judging by past Zoom products, I'm suspicious of the quality of their preamps.

You could get a used Sound Devices 744t that actually does real timecode, has great preamps, knobs that are big enough to grab (albeit barely), and extremely good reliability. The SD 633 would be a step up, but costs more (and is an ideal interview recorder). I continue to be astonished by people who have $40,000 invested in a Red Camera and a couple of lenses but won't spent $4K on audio. Sadly, you often get what you pay for.
Click to expand...
+1 on what Marc said, i btw moved from a SD mix-pre-d (canon mark 2 and my scarlet) to a 744t (when I upgraded to epic) and finally moved up to Nagra VI for my dragons. I find the Nagra's the easiest to use and a bit higher all around quality (i.e. I never got use to the menu system on the 702/744/788, if you are a beginner you need to use it a lot for a few months to real wire it out, on the other hand the size of the 744t I think is about perfect for field recording).

From a purely monetary viewpoint, I see on the film festival circuits a lot of good documentaries with amateur sound that never get distribution deals. On sound most audiences can tell the entire doc quality listening to the first 30 seconds ... and try to escape if they can.

On gearslutz & reduser there is a debate on this about every 3 weeks, latest ones are:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/rem...eed-help-picking-my-first-field-recorder.html
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?132612-field-recorder-mixer
 
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Marc Wielage said:
The Zoom F8's pots are impossible to operate by normal-size humans. This is a "set and forget" box where you can't actively ride levels. Judging by past Zoom products, I'm suspicious of the quality of their preamps.

You could get a used Sound Devices 744t that actually does real timecode, has great preamps, knobs that are big enough to grab (albeit barely), and extremely good reliability. The SD 633 would be a step up, but costs more (and is an ideal interview recorder). I continue to be astonished by people who have $40,000 invested in a Red Camera and a couple of lenses but won't spent $4K on audio. Sadly, you often get what you pay for.
Click to expand...

Whatever Marc says needs special attention.

As far as the Zaxnet /Nomad, for example, generated timecode, fed to ER's that are calibrated, as I posted above, you will have lotta joy with their accuracy. Before the ERX's were capable of calibration, this was not as accurate. The need for an external TC source, for generated TC is less than it was, although, still common place. Without a doubt, as Marc alludes to, the $/Reward ratio, for quality SOund kit, in view of RED camera ownership, demands a not, insubstantial investment. The ease of use, for what U are outlining, with Neverclip and Automix, (please read up on these, before buying anything), in Zaxcom's pieces, are hugely helpful, depending...

Thank you very much

Fury
 
Marc Wielage said:
You could get a used Sound Devices 744t that actually does real timecode, has great preamps, knobs that are big enough to grab (albeit barely), and extremely good reliability. The SD 633 would be a step up, but costs more (and is an ideal interview recorder). I continue to be astonished by people who have $40,000 invested in a Red Camera and a couple of lenses but won't spent $4K on audio. Sadly, you often get what you pay for.
Click to expand...
And the 744t will be similar cost to your f8 and TC sync boxes and a tablet (you'll want one to control the F8)
 
According to Bhphoto. A 744t costs about 4x as much as an F8.

I completely agree with SD and a zaxcom is the way to go, but for me, I can't justify spending that much on something I'll use only a few times a year.

Whenever there's a budget for sound, I'll just get a proper sound recordist with such gear to come out to set either way.

That being said, I'm not a sound guy, when it comes fiction projects, nobody ever asks me to be in charge of sound. I wouldn't dare deal with it. The most I ask for is to make sure whatever sound recordist they get knows how to deal with timecode. There was this one project where the producer mentioned to potential sound recordist that I wanted to record timecode and sound recordist tried to convince him that syncing timecode wasn't worth it. That's where I stepped in and made it clear that I wouldn't be able to work with him.

For docs/corporates, I'm a lot more comfortable being in charge of sound. These type of projects, I'll throw in some sound recording equipment in with the camera kit. I feel the F8 is more than adequate for that. Most of the time, the alternative would be just straight to camera or a handheld zoom or Tascam.

Every completed doc I've worked on has pretty much got decent distribution. I'll also be the first one to tell you that the audience is a lot more forgiving for bad cinematography and editing than they are for bad sound. But honestly, from my experience, on documentary shoots, as long as the dialogue recording is hitting the proper levels, it doesn't matter if you're recording to a 744t or to a handheld Recorder or straight into camera.

I'm also not saying the audio in my docs have sound great, I clearly hear some of our dialogue tracks sounding a bit bright and compressed. The zoom F8 workflow I mentioned already will be 10x better than what we were doing before and I rather have that extra money that could go to a 744t, go to a proper post audio mixer that has a theatre mixing room to make a proper 2ch and 5.1 mix.

Then if even more money gets raised for the next project after that, we'll hire a sound recordist to travel with us and they can bring their nice gear.
 
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Marc Wielage said:
The Zoom F8's pots are impossible to operate by normal-size humans. This is a "set and forget" box where you can't actively ride levels. Judging by past Zoom products, I'm suspicious of the quality of their preamps.

You could get a used Sound Devices 744t that actually does real timecode, has great preamps, knobs that are big enough to grab (albeit barely), and extremely good reliability. The SD 633 would be a step up, but costs more (and is an ideal interview recorder). I continue to be astonished by people who have $40,000 invested in a Red Camera and a couple of lenses but won't spent $4K on audio. Sadly, you often get what you pay for.
Click to expand...

You are right about not being able to mix on the fly with an F8, however, I'm a normal sized human and found the F8 pots manageable. The biggest issue is that they are trims, not faders.

I would much prefer a Zaxcom auto-trim like ability to set trims with the menu knob to at least give me a chance to use the pots to ride levels. In order to actually, you know, use multiple faders to mix with the thing you have to use an iPad app. That's not gonna fly.

The routing flexibility is also great, but you only get 1 headphone preset. I'm unsure of metadata entry or how easy it is to do without an iPad, but if you are going to be doing serious work, you need nothing less than a 633 or Maxx at the moment.

If you are rolling with an H6 or Tascam, then the F8 is going to be a significant upgrade and well worth the $1K. File redundancy, time code, attenuated ISO, remote roll, and a professional locking power input is an incredible value. Additionally, 8 mic pre's is a huge jump from the previous pro-sumer recorders.

And speaking of the pres, FWIW- I heard the pre amps on an MKH50 and can confidently say they are a significant upgrade on the preamps used in their H series.
 
The F8 isn't an option really, as I was planning to be set-up in the next few weeks.

At the low end is an option like the Roland R-44. Provides 4 channels, the physical unit looks decent, small and light weight. Then I imagine we could output audio via a wireless transmitter to a receiver on the camera - giving decent scratch track.
Timecode should be great but if we have a scratch track syncing isn't huge issue for us

or.....................

hammer the Amex and invest in Zaxcom set-up

very torn :violin:
 
In reply to Roger.. A used 744t changes hands for about $2000 US these days...
I have owned both Zaxcomm and Sound devices gear, and have never regretted either one. Their reliability and design have made them a great ROI for me.
 
Roger Singh said:
According to Bhphoto. A 744t costs about 4x as much as an F8.
Click to expand...
Not a used one. I see a used 744 that sold for $1500 on eBay just last week. The expensive side of sound recording are the microphones. If you think of those as the lenses through with everything needs to be captured, then you realize how many mics you need to carry for different circumstances. On days I had a full track for sound, I rarely had fewer than 35 mics of different sizes and varieties.

It's the extra stuff that the sound department can do that will save you money in post and improve sound quality in the end. I've often said, most of the job boils down to problem solving -- not always sound per se.
 
I am working on my audio kit as well. Current plan is a Sound Devices 633, Schoeps CMIT-5U and OMOD W-MINI. Still need to figure out which lav to get that matches the CMIT-5U in sound quality. Any recommendations? Also, wired vs. wireless lav? Probably one of each at least. Cost no object, care about sound quality.

In the end, I plan to hire a proper sound person when I can. Its not my area of expertise, so I would like someone to control that while I focus on the video and interviewing. :) This will probably not always be an option though, so I need the kit for those unfortunate situations.

Also, what about acoustics? What does everyone have in their bag to deal with less than ideal acoustics? e.g. Sound blankets? Acoustic foam? etc...

I agree with Marc, the audio kit needs to be comlpemetnary to the video kit. Why spend $40k on an audio kit and $2k for audio? Seems out of balance. :) I do plan to shoot dual system. e.g.

CMIT-5U -> 633 -> OMOD W-MINI -> Weapon. I may even enable the scratch mic's too. An interview with no audio is pretty worthless in my opinion. :)

Marc, thank you for all your posts on the subject. Maybe we need an "Ask Marc Wielage" thread for audio like we have with David. :) You have always been so generous with your audio knowledge on the forum.
 
I have tested Sanken, Tram, Sennheiser, OST, AKG and DPA lavs lately..
I think the Sanken COS 11, DPA 4061 and 4071 are all good choices to intercut with Schoeps. the DPAs sound most like it, but are not always my go to lav. There are some actors voices that they help, others that they do not.
I also tested countryman b6 and sony 77.. they are definitely not matches for schoeps
 
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