recent Leica Cine glass v Canon Cine Zooms observations...

[Christopher Mills]

Sorry, no screen grabs here, and no pixel peeping on my part..

In the last 4 weeks I have been on 2 sets for cable tv series in the USA...
Due to NDA's I cant tell you which.
However, I can tell you that on an Alexa, with identical monitoring on Panasonic monitors at the DoP stations, with near identical settings displayed on the monitors,
and with preview LUTs, the Leica C lenses do not look very different than the Canon Cine Zooms.
The Leicas, of course have a much closer near focus (they are primes, after all).
However, I was startled at how little difference there was in look between a full set of primes and a pair of Canon Cine zooms.
they would intercut very well

Both look distinctly different to me than Zeiss Master Primes and moderately different than S4 Cookes
Also both are different than RPP lenses

My take away?
The Leicas are not as obviously worth the higher rental cost to me.
I wanted them to be startlingly 'better" or more flattering to talent, and they weren't

The next low budget I shoot, if I want something with gentle tone rendition, I absolutely will not kill myself trying to afford rental cost of the Leicas
I will rent the Canon Zooms, and a slightly larger generator.

For those of you who are able to test them side by side, I suggest you not only shoot charts, and project the glass, but also get a stand in or two and some still life set ups.
You may get what you want out of a $700/day rental package of glass vs a $1800/day one
Obviously, if you want to shoot at lower than an f2.8, then primes in general are easier to deal with.. but also remember that the Canon CN-E primes are about $125/day each to rent.. less than half the cost of Summilux C lenses

And purchase wise, the Leica's just came off my wish list.
modified Lecia R glass, may still have a place on that list, as it is a different look (the main reason I would want to continue my lens hoarding)

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Wowsers

Cheers - #19

 

[Kwan Khan]

Nice

 

[Dave Blackham]

And purchase wise, the Leica's just came off my wish list.
modified Lecia R glass, may still have a place on that list, as it is a different look (the main reason I would want to continue my lens hoarding)

If you find a cure for the lens hording affliction please could you let me know. I would be substantialy better off.

 

[Mick van Rossum NSC]

I don't agree. I've shot Summilux on Epic, Alexa and F65 for feature films and intercut with Angie zooms and Fuji Cabrio's. I've been in grading suites for weeks looking at them. There is not a lot of glass out there without any flare or such very distinct color rendition like the Leica's. Also their compact size and speed made me a very happy user. The question is if they are worth the huge price difference. That is up to everyone individually. I would choose them every time if I had the budget.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I too don't agree with your statement about the Leica Cine Primes vs,.the Canon lenses especially the zooms, two worlds apart, and I have seen so much difference amongst them, and I shot Canon glass since I was a teen ager, one is an apple and the other a Pear, apart that both capture an image, beautifully, see the shots captured at full rez 5k projected on a4k system and you'll see a huge difference, I am not talking about the Aperture difference allowed by the Leica Cine primes to show wide open at T1.4 with absolutely fantastic results as a canon Primes, surely not zoom, even so the latest L series zooms are sure outstanding, and closing the gap with primes as far as image quality, but there is not just the image quality to discuss and concern one self in any shot,can only get close to about f/5.6/8 in the detail, but only till is projected at about 2k go to 4k and you'll see a huge difference in sharpness and resolve of detail, the fact of the beautiful resolve of the Leica's and their addicting contrast is an other look entirely which as Mick said they are clearly apart.

Price worthy? Depends what is your project for and your likes and final delivery, to me they sure are, and even so I am now down to using as a personal set, the world's cheapest Cine modded lenses, the Rokinon's I'll take a set of Leica Cine Primes or Master Primes in a nano second for my Film... Budget allowing...

At the end we have each a pair of eyes and see things differently and also like different things, which is a great, imagine if we liked all the same things,? How boring would that be?


I respect what you see Christopher, better yet I respect what you like and your opinion, I just happen to disagree with it entirely...

 

[Christopher Mills]

Destination of the project is what woudl make the difference

Destination of the project is what woudl make the difference

Ketch,
Where I think we might agree, is that if your project is not going to be displayed in a theater or on a 5K display, the differences in final delivery will not be seen.

Of course they have better mechanicals and flare reduction than a zoom, and *probably* than the CN primes.

However, I saw the viewing experience with a 2.5K ish camera, on a large HD LCD screen that had been calibrated, of projects shot on sets with similar lighting.

The DIT was one who can grade.

The viewing experience was not different enough to make it an automatic pick of one lens being better.

Perhaps the R3D workflow can do more with the Leica than the Canon.

I found that the Alexa did not do more with the Leica than the Canon

Thus, for stage bound episodic TV, I would be comfortable budgeting for the Canon lenses over the Leicas.

Put another way. In this case, the Leica lenses don't do anything extra to justify the rental to me.

In low/available light situations, and on an Epic, they might. Haven''t seen those situations in person yet. Hope to later this year. But I will insist on seeing it before I budget it.

These were not low budget reality shows with inexperienced DPs. They are mainstream dramas from high end producers. The DPs are ASC members.

NICK... My point was the workflow/acquisition/delivery did not take advantage of the difference in color rendition.

 

[Brad Webb]

To me the Leica Summilux C lenses look like the best lenses in the history of the world, with Master Primes a close second. I saw some tests here on reduser that really show how good these lenses are. In my experience all the Canon glass is really great, but suffers from quite a bit of CA compared to the top tier cinema lenses.

Now, the Leica C and Master Primes are stupid expensive. Are they worth it? I'd say that depends on your budget.

 

[Christopher Mills]

What I am trying to say is that best does not always equal best for your project.

 

[Brian Anderson]

Where is the Cooke love?? Forget Leica-C's and Master Primes.. Give me Cooke 5i's

 

[Christopher Mills]

Where is the Cooke love?? Forget Leica-C's and Master Primes.. Give me Cooke 5i's

Haven't seen them under the same conditions as the other lenses.

 

[Phil Holland]

This is an interesting exercise in what's important to a shooter, what can be observed, and how deep that observation goes for an individual.

If you're shooting at T2.8-4 split it's going to be harder and harder to discern the real differences between the lenses. Although, working at 4K/5K it becomes a bit clearer.

Tonal rendering (most would prefer to call that contrast) is different between the lenses discussed. As is the color rendering. However, again, if you aren't shooting wide open it may not be so apparent.

Some personal notes on the Leica Summilux-C Primes from my experience (I've shot on them a bit more since our Salt III Lens Test):

- To date I haven't like the coatings on the Leica Summilux-Cs. Completely desaturated chromatic aberrations that lend to character and not a clinical look.
- Across the set the color is very neutral and controlled across the aperture range.
- One of the more interesting characteristics that happens to the Leica Summilux-C Primes is how their aperture design effects the out of focus image highlights as you stop down, you get a bit of a sparkle, which is more noticeable on certain lengths.
- There is a unique feel to the focus pull on the Summilux-C Primes that you'll love or have weird feelings for, but won't dislike for sure. I personally like the level of feedback they provide.

If I had all the bacon I'd send the bacon to Leica for a set of these lenses.


That said, I'm actually really into and impressed by the new Canon Cine Zooms. They are pretty damn solid. I don't know if they represent the best value (cost to performance ratio) out there on the zoom market, but in terms of their image quality, they are impressive. Mainly I'm looking at the Canon CN-E 14.5-60mm T2.6 as it's a good performer, and does indeed provide a bit more range and speed against an Optimo T2.8 zoom. Interesting decision there. And Canon's own CN-E 15.5-47mm T2.8 becomes part of that equation as it's half the price.

The Canon CN-E 30-105mm T2.8 is pretty impressive and is 5lbs. Good range, not crazy wide, but does indeed cover Mysterium-X 5K today. Which actually makes it right in there in terms of what sort of zoom you'd be after for most shooting situations if you're adhering to a somewhat typical production inspired focal length mindset considering the frame size. which is odd as this particular lens to me seems more like it was designed for a Red Mysterium-X sensor rather than any of Canon's offerings at the moment. Otherwise I'd expect a 24-80-ish lens or something. Meh. Maybe that's me reading into things too much.

The odd duck in the garden here is the Zeiss CZ 28-80mm T2.9 as it's an amazing performer, covers full frame, and also competes against Canon's 30-105mm... Just a smidge less range, but optically slightly better overall, at least to me.

The Fuji Cabrio 19-90 T2.9 is still sexy pants to me. The range, weight, speed, and optical performance put it in a place on it's own without too much competition. However, you pay for that handsomely.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

The ability to put on the servo handle and shoot solo off the shoulder with the left hand on the barrel, elbows tucked, in the classic ergonomic position, when I choose to, makes the Cabrio worth every cent in my book. Yes, there are plenty of "video cameras" for that shooting style with 2/3" sensors and more DOF. Not arguing that. What I do like is the versatility at my fingertips to operate the camera in whatever style suits the purpose at hand. ENG style operation does not automatically make you shoot mindless crap, that's a separate choice.

While I'm on my soapbox, I wish fewer producers and directors based their selection of shooting style on the latest fad and more on the best way to support the storytelling and subtext. I guess its just old school to choose hand held or steadi as a story beat rather than fashion. Yes, I will now throw "Grumpy Old Men" in the VHS deck ;-)

Cheers - #19

 

[Shane Kelly]

That said, I'm actually really into and impressed by the new Canon Cine Zooms. They are pretty damn solid. I don't know if they represent the best value (cost to performance ratio) out there on the zoom market, but in terms of their image quality, they are impressive. Mainly I'm looking at the Canon CN-E 14.5-60mm T2.6 as it's a good performer, and does indeed provide a bit more range and speed against an Optimo T2.8 zoom. Interesting decision there. And Canon's own CN-E 15.5-47mm T2.8 becomes part of that equation as it's half the price.

The Canon CN-E 30-105mm T2.8 is pretty impressive and is 5lbs. Good range, not crazy wide, but does indeed cover Mysterium-X 5K today. Which actually makes it right in there in terms of what sort of zoom you'd be after for most shooting situations if you're adhering to a somewhat typical production inspired focal length mindset considering the frame size. which is odd as this particular lens to me seems more like it was designed for a Red Mysterium-X sensor rather than any of Canon's offerings at the moment. Otherwise I'd expect a 24-80-ish lens or something. Meh. Maybe that's me reading into things too much.

.

Phil, check out what Duclos is doing to these canons, pretty nice:
http://www.ducloslenses.com/blogs/news/7848349-duclos-multi-mount-for-canon-compact-zooms