Raven vs Scarlet Dragon?

[PatrickFaith]

I wouldn't worry and put zero brain energy into this question if I had a scarlet dragon -just keep shooting. I'd just wait to see what happens on the scarlet/mid-range weapon this coming NAB 2016.

 

[Fernando Tufiño]

I think (wish really) that there will be a new upgrade path for Scarlet Dragon to a new body, and I don´t mean Weapon, which makes more sense for Epic Dragon users, budget-wise.
It would be nice if it will be announced before the end of this year, so some Scarlet Dragon owners could get ready to make the jump when NAB 2016 hits.
Since Raven is 4K 120 fps and Weapon will be 8k (and probably more than 100 fps), it makes sense for this new camera to be 6k and more than 100 fps (240 fps would be great).
Adding interchangeable mounts, OLPFs and 4K ProRes, it will stand out on its own.
It would be great that it costs a little more than a Scarlet Dragon and less than an Epic Dragon.

Making a greater and affordable 6k camera could really make again a huge difference for independent filmmaking.

Great time to be young and crazy....

 

[sam karr]

I think (wish really) that there will be a new upgrade path for Scarlet Dragon to a new body, and I don´t mean Weapon, which makes more sense for Epic Dragon users, budget-wise.
It would be nice if it will be announced before the end of this year, so some Scarlet Dragon owners could get ready to make the jump when NAB 2016 hits.
Since Raven is 4K 120 fps and Weapon will be 8k (and probably more than 100 fps), it makes sense for this new camera to be 6k and more than 100 fps (240 fps would be great).
Adding interchangeable mounts, OLPFs and 4K ProRes, it will stand out on its own.
It would be great that it costs a little more than a Scarlet Dragon and less than an Epic Dragon.

Making a greater and affordable 6k camera could really make again a huge difference for independent filmmaking.

Great time to be young and crazy....

I think and hope it will be 5k limited, without 6k, same redcode and slowmo as epic in a weapon body. No price change or cheaper. 6k is for weapon.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

I've got a deposit down for Raven, just like many others. But I guess the camera I actually want is the Weapon Scarlet 2016 (I know the name doesn't make sense, but at least everyone knows what I mean).

In 6 months a lot can and will happen. A really complete camera would be:

• Weapon (including all we know about Raven/Mg)
• Dragon
• EF-mount swappable
• 6k25 (but I'd totally take 15, just for stills)
• 5k60
• 4k120
• $12995 for brain

I'm thinking NAB announce, August delivery.

In summary: 5k film mode, 6k stills mode—with updated specs to reflect Raven's existence and looking almost a year forward. I could use that camera for a long time…

RED is showing some serious intent with the Raven and its pricing. The other cameras will somehow have to follow in their own pace.

 

[sam karr]

• Weapon (including all we know about Raven/Mg)
• Dragon
• EF-mount swappable
• 6k15
• 5k60
• 4k120

Exactly. I do hope it will be announced this year and be available not too late. Dragon sensor is already there for a while. When all the bodies will be weaponized I guess it will be time for red to announce a new sensor. I would like to enjoy an upgraded scarlet without thinking that the new sensor is a few weeks away.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

From a business strategy POV, consider this:

RED introduces Raven and gains a ton of new owners to the fold. Meanwhile Epic Dragon owners are either upgrading to Weapon or happily shooting what the have. Scarlet Dragon owners (like me) are caught in the middle a bit but keep shooting with a great camera and wait. Of course, some SD owners might switch to Raven and a few Epic D and Scarlet D owners will ADD a Raven to their kit because it is so compelling. All of this is good for RED.

In several months, RED comes up with a camera to fit between Raven and Weapon and more good things happen:

S Dragon owners flock to the new camera AND plenty of Raven owners may decide to move up as well - seems reasonable they'd get an upgrade offer as well. Any previously uncommitted Epic Dragon owners my also decide to move as well.

Everbody is happy and RED gained many new customers and sold lots of new cameras. And, most of RED's loyal customers are all set up in DSMC2 so they can participate in the next round of sensor upgrades.

And they all lived happily ever after.

 

[Curran Giddens]

From a business strategy POV, consider this:

RED introduces Raven and gains a ton of new owners to the fold. Meanwhile Epic Dragon owners are either upgrading to Weapon or happily shooting what the have. Scarlet Dragon owners (like me) are caught in the middle a bit but keep shooting with a great camera and wait. Of course, some SD owners might switch to Raven and a few Epic D and Scarlet D owners will ADD a Raven to their kit because it is so compelling. All of this is good for RED.

In several months, RED comes up with a camera to fit between Raven and Weapon and more good things happen:

S Dragon owners flock to the new camera AND plenty of Raven owners may decide to move up as well - seems reasonable they'd get an upgrade offer as well. Any previously uncommitted Epic Dragon owners my also decide to move as well.

Everbody is happy and RED gained many new customers and sold lots of new cameras. And, most of RED's loyal customers are all set up in DSMC2 so they can participate in the next round of sensor upgrades.

And they all lived happily ever after.

Exactly.

 

[Fernando Tufiño]

From a business strategy POV, consider this:

RED introduces Raven and gains a ton of new owners to the fold. Meanwhile Epic Dragon owners are either upgrading to Weapon or happily shooting what the have. Scarlet Dragon owners (like me) are caught in the middle a bit but keep shooting with a great camera and wait. Of course, some SD owners might switch to Raven and a few Epic D and Scarlet D owners will ADD a Raven to their kit because it is so compelling. All of this is good for RED.

In several months, RED comes up with a camera to fit between Raven and Weapon and more good things happen:

S Dragon owners flock to the new camera AND plenty of Raven owners may decide to move up as well - seems reasonable they'd get an upgrade offer as well. Any previously uncommitted Epic Dragon owners my also decide to move as well.

Everbody is happy and RED gained many new customers and sold lots of new cameras. And, most of RED's loyal customers are all set up in DSMC2 so they can participate in the next round of sensor upgrades.

And they all lived happily ever after.

So a Scarlet/Epic Dragon upgrade program to this new camera is a great idea to make everyone happy. (I hope THEY are reading this)


6k 48 fps
5k 60/75 fps
4k 150 fps

4k ProRes
interchangeable Mount and OLPF

and i'm sold​

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

So a Scarlet/Epic Dragon upgrade program to this new camera is a great idea to make everyone happy. (I hope THEY are reading this)


6k 48 fps
5k 60/75 fps
4k 150 fps

4k ProRes
interchangeable Mount and OLPF

and i'm sold​

Just don't spec a Weapon Carbon and demand a Scarlet price. That will never work.

I'm thinking high fps at 6k, and LUTs are reserved for top model. Probably 4k ProRes to. Weapon MG only has 2k ProRes.

 

[sam karr]

So a Scarlet/Epic Dragon upgrade program to this new camera is a great idea to make everyone happy. (I hope THEY are reading this)


6k 48 fps
5k 60/75 fps
4k 150 fps

4k ProRes
interchangeable Mount and OLPF

and i'm sold​

Epic dragon already has an upgrade.

 

[Bérenger Brillante]

Just don't spec a Weapon Carbon and demand a Scarlet price. That will never work. I'm thinking high fps at 6k, and LUTs are reserved for top model. Probably 4k ProRes to. Weapon MG only has 2k ProRes.

There won't be a Scarlet Dragon 6k. 6k is Weapon. 8k should have a different name if you ask me.
I would be happy if Scarlet Dragon is 6k/12p for stills.

Upgrade are also a way of limiting the specs for a certain price range too.

I bet the next Scarlet Dragon will do all the flavours of Prores, but at 2k like Weapon MG.
+ all the specs of the previous Scarlet Dragon
+ the added specs of the Weapon body (wifi...)

It should have 3Dlut. If we are all interchangeable like SD, we are in pro level. I guess it won't but it would be an error as New Scarlet Dragon could be the Mini killer.

 

[sam karr]

There won't be a Scarlet Dragon 6k. 6k is Weapon. 8k should have a different name if you ask me.
I would be happy if Scarlet Dragon is 6k/12p for stills.

Exactly. No 6k @24 in the future scarlet for sure. That's the weapon territory. I think it will just be a scarlet upgrade. What would they offer to epic dragon owners as an upgrade? Refunding money because the new cam is not shooting @6K? Or even just trading it for nothing because they took off the 6k capacity but added a new body? I think they made it clear, epic has a path already.

 

[Fernando Tufiño]

Exactly. No 6k @24 in the future scarlet for sure. That's the weapon territory. I think it will just be a scarlet upgrade. What would they offer to epic dragon owners as an upgrade? Refunding money because the new cam is not shooting @6K? Or even just trading it for nothing because they took off the 6k capacity but added a new body? I think they made it clear, epic has a path already.

I think we might have a whole idea of what Weapon can do (Sadly, I am not speaking from experience here) when the 8k sensor upgrades goes out, but 8k or 6k weapon is still way off budget for some people who lives fine in the Scarlet/Epic dragon infrastructure. Raven is great as a secondary camera, and Weapon is way up, so it´s becoming clear that a "goldilocks" camera is a welcome idea, but it is not neccesary right now.

It might take a little more time to be announced, but if it´s an upgrade of Scarlet Dragon, it would be great if it delivers at least 5k 75 fps (wishing for 120 fps or more) so we can pull the trigger without breaking a sweat.

I understand why it shouldn´t go 6k, but then again, a few years ago the Epic MX had a major cut in price, it could be a possibility that it happens again.

Either way, it seems that we have at least a whole year (announcement, deposit, waiting in line, delivery) before dealing with something like this.

My plan is to work my ass off with my Scarlet Dragon, while I get a Raven and invest on some essential Weapon/Raven accessories, so I don´t get caught with my pants down next April for any NAB announcement.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

I've got a deposit down for Raven, just like many others. But I guess the camera I actually want is the Weapon Scarlet 2016 (I know the name doesn't make sense, but at least everyone knows what I mean).

In 6 months a lot can and will happen. A really complete camera would be:

• Weapon (including all we know about Raven/Mg)
• Dragon
• EF-mount swappable
• 6k25 (but I'd totally take 15, just for stills)
• 5k60
• 4k120
• $12995 for brain

I'm thinking NAB announce, August delivery.

In summary: 5k film mode, 6k stills mode—with updated specs to reflect Raven's existence and looking almost a year forward. I could use that camera for a long time…

RED is showing some serious intent with the Raven and its pricing. The other cameras will somehow have to follow in their own pace.

I think you are really close, because I believe the logical successor to SCARLET DRAGON is to WEAPONize RAVEN as follows:

WEAPON DRAGON sensor gives you 6K
RAVEN processing gives you 2x SCARLET specs, i.e., what you listed above. More precisely, 6K 24fps @ 8:1, 6K 25fps @ 9:1
For cost reasons, the SIDE SSD and OLPF should be built-in
For flexibility reasons, the lens mount should be user-changeable
For cost reasons, the body could be made of Aluminum (and maybe called WEAPON AL)
For simplicity reasons (and perhaps due to limitations of DRAGON sensor readouts using "single-engine" processors), probably only supports the whole-K shooting windows (6K, 5K, 4K, 3K, 2K, not 5.5K, 4.5K, 3.5K, 2.5K)

I think RED could land the above for somewhere around $12,995 (which would rise to $14,995 package price with an aluminum-compatible lens mount).

Moreover, they could offer the same $5,000 SD trade-in credit (SD + Side SSD + Lens Mount) against the new camera package (Brain + Integrated SSD + Lens Mount) that they offered for WEAPON, making it effectively a $10,000 cost to double the performance of the SD. That still leaves performance somewhat below EPIC DRAGON, well below WEAPON MG and WEAPON CF, and solidly above RED RAVEN.

To me the above makes sense because they've worked out the low-cost electronics with RAVEN and they've made it pretty clear they are sticking with the DRAGON sensor across the range. Obviously there's some bit of engineering needed to put two and two together, and manufacturing is a process, but fundamentally they have pretty straightforward sourcing for the vast majority of what's needed.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I think you are really close, because I believe the logical successor to SCARLET DRAGON is to WEAPONize RAVEN as follows:

WEAPON DRAGON sensor gives you 6K
RAVEN processing gives you 2x SCARLET specs, i.e., what you listed above. More precisely, 6K 24fps @ 8:1, 6K 25fps @ 9:1
For cost reasons, the SIDE SSD and OLPF should be built-in
For flexibility reasons, the lens mount should be user-changeable
For cost reasons, the body could be made of Aluminum (and maybe called WEAPON AL)
For simplicity reasons (and perhaps due to limitations of DRAGON sensor readouts using "single-engine" processors), probably only supports the whole-K shooting windows (6K, 5K, 4K, 3K, 2K, not 5.5K, 4.5K, 3.5K, 2.5K)

I think RED could land the above for somewhere around $12,995 (which would rise to $14,995 package price with an aluminum-compatible lens mount).

Moreover, they could offer the same $5,000 SD trade-in credit (SD + Side SSD + Lens Mount) against the new camera package (Brain + Integrated SSD + Lens Mount) that they offered for WEAPON, making it effectively a $10,000 cost to double the performance of the SD. That still leaves performance somewhat below EPIC DRAGON, well below WEAPON MG and WEAPON CF, and solidly above RED RAVEN.

To me the above makes sense because they've worked out the low-cost electronics with RAVEN and they've made it pretty clear they are sticking with the DRAGON sensor across the range. Obviously there's some bit of engineering needed to put two and two together, and manufacturing is a process, but fundamentally they have pretty straightforward sourcing for the vast majority of what's needed.

Only thing I'd want to change on this is swappable OLPFs.

 

[sam karr]

Moreover, they could offer the same $5,000 SD trade-in credit (SD + Side SSD + Lens Mount)

That offer was not really fair. They offered almost 60% of the price of the epic and less than the third of the price of the scarlet .... I hope it was to discourage scarlet owners to upgrade to weapon knowing that an upgrade would arrive for them. I guess people would get more money by selling their scarlet themselves.

 

[Akin A]

The more I think about this, the more I think Raven is about to cannibalize Scarlet Dragon. That price difference is too big for people to choose a SD.
Scarlet Dragon is great in today's standards and can easily be used as an A cam on a nice feature. But Ravens are nearly given away at that cost compared to the rest of the lineup and they use the next generation of modules.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

The lineup will need to change.

Raven is RED's newest camera. Their most recent statement. It's a really good starting camera, or B camera/drone/gimbal for those who got beefier REDs.

Weapon carbon makes sense. Not sure both flavours make sense, but a carbon Weapon that's all that RED can be: most power, most features, as light as possible... It's for businesses doing well, rental shops and so own. Everyone who wants a Weapon Dragon really wants this.

And then there is Scarlet. A gift. A promise. Good enough of everything, but not too much of anything. Priced within reach of owner operators, small businesses and the indie crowd.

This Scarlet already exists in the current lineup: it's actually the Weapon Magnesium—but it isn't configured properly. It's too powerful and too expensive. It should be aluminium and probably not do as many fps at higher frame rates in order to not clash with the carbon versions.

RED: here's your lineup for 2016. (You're welcome =)

• Raven $5950
• Weapon aluminum (6k15, 5k60, 4k120) $15990 <--- massage this down to $12990
• Weapon Carbon. RED's best. $49500.
• Weapon Carbon Forged. Same as above, just forged. For people who don't know what to do with their money, or just need more bling in their lives. $59500

Redusers: put on your BigBoy-pants[SUP]tm[/SUP] and kiss your trade-ins goodbye. See privately and contribute to widening the user base. (just listen to the sound of forum whining fading away).