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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Raven and motion mount

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Dolph van Stapele

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I'm a motion mount user on the Epic. For infrared, global shutter and ND. For documentary a nice almost must have feature. I definitely want the raven but not without the Motion Mount option.
 
I've got to say... I have looked long and hard at the Raven this past week, and I too would be a certain buyer and avid user if this camera offered an internal ND filter option. I've hesitated to bring it up in these forums, because I know that there are always going to be people pleading for more options/specs/accessories. That said, it is really the only thing preventing me from pulling the trigger at this point. The Raven is suited to be an amazingly powerful documentary camera, but as a doc cinematographer, the one thing I need is for the camera to be a self-contained, reliable, go-to tool. A matte box or lens-attached ND is just not practical. As has been pointed out... Raven might not fit the bill. It's just a shame.
 
Colin Nusbaum said:
I've got to say... I have looked long and hard at the Raven this past week, and I too would be a certain buyer and avid user if this camera offered an internal ND filter option. I've hesitated to bring it up in these forums, because I know that there are always going to be people pleading for more options/specs/accessories. That said, it is really the only thing preventing me from pulling the trigger at this point. The Raven is suited to be an amazingly powerful documentary camera, but as a doc cinematographer, the one thing I need is for the camera to be a self-contained, reliable, go-to tool. A matte box or lens-attached ND is just not practical. As has been pointed out... Raven might not fit the bill. It's just a shame.
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It may be a shame but at this point you have to realize that this is a business and by this point there must be well over 100 pre-orders for a product that won't be released until February 2016. That's $500,000+ new revenue for A BUSINESS. It's about hitting target numbers at the bottom line. I'm sure if sales on Raven go through the roof there will be a product between Raven and Weapon which will offer more features - which I suspect at a higher price (because this is a business after all)
 
No internal ND isn't a deal-breaker for me. It would have been great to have it, but not having it doesn't put that incredible camera behind the competition. I think there are usable Vari-NDs out there. As long as those aren't used at their limits they work nicely.

The new Tiffen MRT and Donut stuff is pretty cool if a Mattebox is in your arsenal. And there a good screw-ons, i don't see why it's not practical to use them. Just get one for every lens and you are good. Very easy to use and detachable if that bit of extra light is needed (easier than swapping a lens-mount).

Or wait for the teased mid-range DSMC²-body, which will probably support the swappable lens-mounts.

Two more thoughts, with today's tech and a camera like RAVEN there is another way to compensate for the amount of light. Shoot high fps with 360degree shutter and then use Tessive Timeshaper. Hypercinema like this starts at 120fps, which RAVEN can do at 4k. Google it up, it's an awesome piece of software (which i wish would be included in RCX *hint* ;) ).

With the same goal, to reduce the amount of light, you can do some testing with the frame-processing feature (averaging). With the horsepower of a RAVEN this should become fun and might be able to do some stops of filtration without actually having optical filtration.

One more smart Vari-ND solution is a mount-adaptor from Fotodiox. They do some stuff to adapt Medium-Format-glass to EF-mount and use the space between lens and sensor for a Vari-ND. Pretty cool. However, i haven't found reviews about the optical qualities of that filter.

IMHO if you really see the value of a RAVEN and if you really want all the great stuff it delivers, then it's hard to believe that the absence of a built-in ND is the one and only thing that holds you back. ;)
 
With a few exceptions (90 or 114 mm), I standardize the fronts of most of my lenses at 80mm with these:

http://www.cordvision.com/77mm-cine-ring-80mm-o-d/

At that point, it is relatively simple to either add a matte box or a screw on filter. Since so many of my lenses are then the same diameter I can keep just one donut on the MB and use the same size screw on NDs. I haven't used internal NDs but I think I prefer the system. If you are really forced into a "run and gun" situation, there are obviously other ways to vary the exposure as well. Seems like much ado about nothing, IMO.
 
Samir Patel said:
It may be a shame but at this point you have to realize that this is a business
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It's true that this is a business, and the folks at RED surely have a lot more experience in running a business of this size than I do. I merely mean that it's a shame for me... because RED has made an amazing camera with RAVEN, and one that I wish I could justify buying. But after using internal NDs for the last several years, that feature has proved itself nearly essential for me. Of course this is not true for everyone, but it rates right up there with image quality (outweighing my need for HFR).

Terry VerHaar said:
If you are really forced into a "run and gun" situation, there are obviously other ways to vary the exposure as well. Seems like much ado about nothing, IMO.
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Specifically for me, shooting documentary means following action as it happens. Call it run n gun, or whatever, but I almost exclusively shoot verite cinematography (while incorporating a cinematic aesthetic). In doing so, I am following people/action from inside to outside, sunlight to shade. I've never been happy with variable NDs (maybe I'm wrong about their quality and usability nowadays, as it's been a while).

Now, I am not trying to argue with anyone, or dispute the amazing package that RED has put together with Raven. I am actually trying to decide if the lack of NDs is actually a deal-breaker for me. I wish it had it, and would be willing to pony up for it if it were available. The only other contender for me is the new C300 MKII, but we all know the advantages Raven has over that. Maybe, as you say, I will need to wait and see about a forthcoming mid-range DSMC2...
 
Frankly I guess RED is aware of the demand for internal ND's, and as a user I don't have issues with them polluting the optical path, as when I can use a mattebox, I'll just not use the internal ones.

And I suspect this is something RED is investigating. I would.
But features for current Raven is probably locked down.
 
I'll make a little noise for a permanent motion mount RAVEN. I think this option fits the potential user base perfectly. In fast outdoor environments, there is nothing like it - the ability to make 1/10th stop adjustments - the ability to perfect your histogram in seconds. It's the fastest and most precise solution available for controlling light in the camera.

I know RED has probably locked down the specs, but they're good listeners, and they often decide that if enough users will buy it and it makes sense for their product line, then they'll make it. I wonder if they built a fixed motion mount for RAVEN, whether that might also impact or minimize the light loss on the mount itself. I'm not sure what the source of the light loss is on the current motion mount - just thinking out loud.
 
Motion-Mount on RAVEN, i don't see this happening, at least not in this generation. Look at the price of the motion-mount, even a stripped down version on a fixed mount-camera and with smaller glass will cost serious money. Are people willing to pay 2k or 3k extra for a RAVEN with integrated motion-mount? I doubt this body will sell in masses... And selling in good quantities for a great price is part of the RAVEN-strategy.

I think this gap will be filled with the mentioned/teased next DMSC²-body, the one that sits between RAVEN and WEAPON. We just have to wait a bit longer.
 
Maik Müller said:
Motion-Mount on RAVEN, i don't see this happening, at least not in this generation. Look at the price of the motion-mount, even a stripped down version on a fixed mount-camera and with smaller glass will cost serious money. Are people willing to pay 2k or 3k extra for a RAVEN with integrated motion-mount? I doubt this body will sell in masses... And selling in good quantities for a great price is part of the RAVEN-strategy.

I think this gap will be filled with the mentioned/teased next DMSC²-body, the one that sits between RAVEN and WEAPON. We just have to wait a bit longer.
Click to expand...

You took the words out of my mouth.

The Motion Mount itself is $3900. Seems like the next DSMC2 body, which IMO will have interchangeable mounts like current cameras, is where you'll get your wish. Not necessarily internal NDs but the opportunity to add the $3900 Motion Mount. Those who lust for it will pay, those that don't need it will save the cash.
 
kylebainter said:
I'd pay up to motion mount prices if it could go from Clear to Full on ND
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It can not and there is other things that comes with the motion mount so for those reasons it kind of have to be an on off thing. I for one would like to have the motion flicker glass infront of the lens instead of behind.
 
As we all know Raven is being strongly advertised as a gimbal & drone cam and RED seemingly avoid marketing it as entry, low level, budget or beginner camera. But we know it is as it only comes with fixed EF mount and I clearly do not understand why other than they are trying to protect their upper line system. I bet there are many people who buy Raven for drone/gimbal also uses PL and other mount lens. Just because Raven was designed for drone/gimbal means user only use EF mount? EF mount is much lighter than PL/Nikon mount? I don't think so. If Raven has an interchangeable mount, I will seriously consider their motion mount given that it has variable ND filter and global shutter. I'm not willing to pay 4k more for scarlet-w and another 4k for motion mount and only get a bump up to 5k and so called future proof when we know RED doesn't do trade in and you may have to buy another new cam with a bonus $2.5k credit to spend.
 
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