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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Question I've always wondered about RED One footage...

James_Mills

James_Mills

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For the past three years I've been wondering what it is about the RED One sensor / camera that has such a specific look when shooting with a blueish keylight with high contrast / very little fill. I'm sure some of you know what I'm talking about, it's a very digital / nonfilm look that has a shiny, almost 3D animation look to it; it's most noticeable in many scenes in Antichrist, Winters Bone, Super 8, and particularly in the (almost) sex scene in Blue Valentine at the crazy hotel on Michelle Williams' face.

It's a very unattractive look in my personal opinion, and I ran into it the past few days on set when shooting with blue keys and a Red MX. What causes this? I'm curious for the specific term; is it the run-off? I never see this in Alexa footage, and I haven't ran into it yet with my Scarlet though I imagine it owuld be the same considering the sensor. But then someone on set told me that the Scarlet and Epic have something different about their bit rate and colors that prevents this to some degree; is that even true? I'm not sure at all...

I absolutely adore the Red MX for every reason except this one, so just wondering if anyone can pinpoint what makes this look and whether or not it's prevalent in the Epic (which I haven't seen an Epic shot feature with it yet) and Scarlet...
 
James, can you post a trimmed R3D or even an R3D snapshot and provide some additional information for the shots such as the lights used, color temperature, etc. It will help to track down the issue you speak of. I've certainly seen some interesting highlights with digital video, but it always helps to see a visual to make sure we're on the same page.
 
is be interested to see that also, i havent recieved mine yet but from what ive seen alot of the best looking stuff from the red 1 seems to be under blue light to varying degrees, i assumed that that was the optimal colour light for it- social network, girl with the dragon tatoo for example.
what specific moments in antichrist do you mean because 1 i recall that film looked flawless. 2 i dont remember any blue light.
 
I asked the DIT to pull me a frame from a few scenes I remembered them in but he never ended up doing it for me. When it comes out I'll post it. I'm surprised you guys don't know what I'm talking about though, it's very noticeable to me. I remember watching Winter's Bone and Source Code and immediately saying "Oh, this was shot with the Red" when that look came from those specific shots. It creates a shiny, fake looking skin tone.

Maybe it's not only in blue key lightings, but just dramatic party gel-ish looking key lights in general and that woudl explain why Antichrist doesn't ring the bell. For some reason it's specifically blue scenes that stick in my mind though.
 
James_Mills said:
I asked the DIT to pull me a frame from a few scenes I remembered them in but he never ended up doing it for me. When it comes out I'll post it. I'm surprised you guys don't know what I'm talking about though, it's very noticeable to me. I remember watching Winter's Bone and Source Code and immediately saying "Oh, this was shot with the Red" when that look came from those specific shots. It creates a shiny, fake looking skin tone.

Maybe it's not only in blue key lightings, but just dramatic party gel-ish looking key lights in general and that woudl explain why Antichrist doesn't ring the bell. For some reason it's specifically blue scenes that stick in my mind though.
Click to expand...
I'm very familiar with how Red handles highlights under various lighting conditions but the only movie I have seen of the ones you have mentioned is Winter's Bone. But the part I'm trying to understand is whether you are referring to straight up 5600K lighting in high contrast or if you are referring to situations where heavy blue gelling is used in high contrast scenarios. That's why I was hoping for a visual to confirm. By the way, some movies I see have characteristics that don't always match my own experience with the cameras. Processing of files, aggressive color grades, etc sometimes factor into a look that I know is not native to the response of the sensor. Not saying the M-X doesn't have some issues, and certainly not saying that what you're experiencing isn't true, just an observation on what I've seen from some Red movies in the past.
 
I'm talking about situations with overly blue key lighting, ie situations with cyan flos and only white balanced to 3200 and whatnot. I'm not saying that's what was used for the scenes I'm talking about in these films, just that it's for dramatic party gel type like lighting, not for normal daylight (thank God!)
 
Understood. In the footage you shot, what were you seeing in the individual channels? Was there clipping involved?
 
Steve Sherrick said:
Understood. In the footage you shot, what were you seeing in the individual channels? Was there clipping involved?
Click to expand...

I'm still green with shooting on REDs in general, can you elaborate a little more on what you mean by channels and clipping? Excuse my ignorance please...
 
I can't remember the specific scenes, though they're in the first half because I only watched that much of it. I'm really surprised none of you guys know what I'm talking about... I guess I'll just have to wait until I can get some stills from that shoot I did. Or just check out the scene I specifically mentioned from Blue Valentine (or basically most of Super 8)
 
James_Mills said:
I can't remember the specific scenes, though they're in the first half because I only watched that much of it. I'm really surprised none of you guys know what I'm talking about... I guess I'll just have to wait until I can get some stills from that shoot I did. Or just check out the scene I specifically mentioned from Blue Valentine (or basically most of Super 8)
Click to expand...

Super 8 was shot on film... They used a r1MX for just a couple vfx plates and shots.
 
R1 vs Epic/Scarlet bit depth

R1 vs Epic/Scarlet bit depth

Hi James,
To answer your question about the difference between R1 and Scarlet/Epic, the R1 compresses your data at 12bits, while the Epic/Scarlet compresses at 16bits (although that may depend of the compression ratio, Red hasn't been quite clear about that, it's apparently not so simple), that may cause a difference, but I haven't seen the issue your speaking of.
Cheers,
Damien

James_Mills said:
For the past three years I've been wondering what it is about the RED One sensor / camera that has such a specific look when shooting with a blueish keylight with high contrast / very little fill. I'm sure some of you know what I'm talking about, it's a very digital / nonfilm look that has a shiny, almost 3D animation look to it; it's most noticeable in many scenes in Antichrist, Winters Bone, Super 8, and particularly in the (almost) sex scene in Blue Valentine at the crazy hotel on Michelle Williams' face.

It's a very unattractive look in my personal opinion, and I ran into it the past few days on set when shooting with blue keys and a Red MX. What causes this? I'm curious for the specific term; is it the run-off? I never see this in Alexa footage, and I haven't ran into it yet with my Scarlet though I imagine it owuld be the same considering the sensor. But then someone on set told me that the Scarlet and Epic have something different about their bit rate and colors that prevents this to some degree; is that even true? I'm not sure at all...

I absolutely adore the Red MX for every reason except this one, so just wondering if anyone can pinpoint what makes this look and whether or not it's prevalent in the Epic (which I haven't seen an Epic shot feature with it yet) and Scarlet...
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for that link, Matt. of all the grabs, this one displays most clearly what I'm referring to:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-imukRQMU8.../s1600/blue-valentine-movie-screenshots15.jpg

Notice how the cheek gets shiny and the fall off seems pretty sharp, gives it an animated look almost, hence why I said it looks very digital.

A little bit with this one as well, look how much detail is lost on her face: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4EtdMnSy6.../s1600/blue-valentine-movie-screenshots16.jpg

For the Winters Bone shots (which btw have an enormous amount of CA, anyways else notice that? I wonder what lenses they shot with, gotta avoid them...), you can see it somewhat on the cheeks here as well; you lose sight of any pores or anything and just get a very rounded looking face with little texture: http://www.cinemasquid.com/blu-ray/...36094997/af943317-cd62-4d22-bc80-859bed3cc8ea

I wasn't aware that most of Super 8 was shot on film; I don't think I ever even checked, I just remember watching a few scenes at the beginning and thinking immediately that it had that same RED skintone look. Here's a bit of what I'm talking about: http://www.highdefdiscnews.com/screenshots/super_8_8.png


None of these completely do justice to what I'm referring to, but it's a very blatant and egregious look to me that is along these lines. Antichrist is the most noticeable, I'd say; some screenshots there would help.
 
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Are you talking about what looks like the softening and out of focus look in the skin tones (lacking any real detail)? A plastic look rather than a natural rendering and sharpness of real skin?

Yeah Super 8 is 95% film, 5% RED1 MX.

Here's some Antichrist grabs:
http://www.highdefdiscnews.com/?p=55528
 
Matt Ryan said:
A plastic look rather than a natural rendering and sharpness of real skin?
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly! That is as good a description as I can imagine. What is this from? I've never noticed this very specific look in anything other than RED footage...

Here's some examples from the antichrist grabs, though these aren't as dramatic as some of the scenes I remember:

http://www.highdefdiscnews.com/screenshots/antichrist_6.png
http://www.highdefdiscnews.com/screenshots/antichrist_17.png
 
Looks like they shot Winter's Bone with master prime's and optimo zooms. Doubt they would cause what you're talking about.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1399683/technical

James_Mills said:
For the Winters Bone shots (which btw have an enormous amount of CA, anyways else notice that? I wonder what lenses they shot with, gotta avoid them...), you can see it somewhat on the cheeks here as well; you lose sight of any pores or anything and just get a very rounded looking face with little texture: http://www.cinemasquid.com/blu-ray/...36094997/af943317-cd62-4d22-bc80-859bed3cc8ea
Click to expand...
 
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Matt Doane said:
Looks like they shot Winter's Bone with master prime's and optimo zooms. Doubt they would cause what you're talking about.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1399683/technical
Click to expand...

Hmm, I wonder what then. These shots and their highlights display what I was referring to. Am I wrong in labeling these as CA? Do you think they might have been intentional?

http://media.cinemasquid.com/blu-ra...950236&Signature=jFJ4y43Yq3X4Qxjd8NK2Vv0BC8E=

http://media.cinemasquid.com/blu-ra...950288&Signature=QIpcw/co5YJNq0jaep6f+8BWckI=
 
James_Mills said:
Hmm, I wonder what then. These shots and their highlights display what I was referring to. Am I wrong in labeling these as CA? Do you think they might have been intentional?

http://media.cinemasquid.com/blu-ra...950236&Signature=jFJ4y43Yq3X4Qxjd8NK2Vv0BC8E=

http://media.cinemasquid.com/blu-ra...950288&Signature=QIpcw/co5YJNq0jaep6f+8BWckI=
Click to expand...


Not to step on some bodys feet, but to me it's a combo of lightning and grading that caused the not so attractive look. I'm sure it's possible to recreate on any other digital film camera or SLR or even on film. If I would have graded the cop shot of the sherif I would probably have killed blue in the highlights and then tinted the shot back in balance.
 
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