Question about the RED SCARLET-X Framerates compared to The RED EPIC

[Hosam Abdulkader]

Hello everybody,

as a future SCARLET-X user, who was hoping for 120fps @ 3 K and higher (burst-)framerates (even with a 2/3" Sensor) -

Jim made it hard to be disappointed with the new SCARLET-X, simply because of the EPIC S-35 Sensor, dynamic range, resolution, HDR-X, 5K Stills ETC... I know there´s nothing in the market, that provides these specs for that price!

....BUT....

.... as it was said, that RED is on the side of the customers and of course are aware of the "LOVE", people like me have for the option of higher framerates, I got the impression, that the framerate-difference between the SCARLET and the EPIC is just too BIG -

or maybe (sorry for that...) "crippled" to keep the difference between these TWO BROTHERS?

Isn´t the option to shoot at higher framerates in a "useable" resolution, something like a hallmark of the RED CAMS?

Many people were or still are disappointed (me included), that now the dream of the RAW+SLOWMO combination is simply "DEAD"....let´s be honest: Who will use 120fps @ 1K for his next commercial or feature film when it is needed?


Here is what people like me only can dream of:


1-120 fps @ 5K RAW (Full Frame, 2:1, 2.4:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
4.5K RAW (2.4:1)

1-150 fps @ 4K RAW (16:9, HD, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)

1-200 fps @ 3K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)

1-300 fps @ 2K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)


And here is what people like me have to compromise to:

1-12 fps 5K FF

1-30 fps 4K HD

1-48 fps 3K HD

1-60 fps 1080p HD

1-120 fps 1K


I think - and that is only my view (hoping it is not unrealistic for that price or hardware-wise...) - there is really room for some adjustments that could be implemented in the future (or as a present with delivery?....


1-25 fps 5K FF (to get the 5K usable for motion)

1-60 fps 4K HD (to get the 4K usable for 2 x slowmotion)

1-100 fps 3K HD (to get the 3K usable for 4 x slowmotion) or at least at 2K

1-120 or 150 fps 1080p HD (for 6 x slowmotion)

1- 150 or 200 fps 1K




Having an S35 or APS-C sized Sensor-Coverage for motion is nothing special today - even with 1080p @60 fps - I know, I know...no RED CODE, 4K etc...

But how often do and will you deliver 4K to your client? And for those who praise the RED-CODE....can you afford the RED ROCKET directly with your SCARLET-X....if yes - that´s nice for You.....if no - I got the same problem!



My plan was...

1. Shooting wide-action-slowmotion-harsh-lighted situations with the RED SCARLET 2/3"
2. Shootimng shallow depth-of-field with one of the better(but still not expensive) options, the market offers....



NOW HERE COMES THE QUESTION:

1. SHOULDN`t IT BE POSSIBLE TO ADD HIGHER FRAMERATES IN A CLEVER-RED MANNOR? Like reduced compression or other compromises? - In that case I don´t mean price-wise / I mean the hardware-capacity...

2. If the price doesn´t allow....than - IS IT POSSIBLE TO GET A HARDWARE-UPGRADE, TO GET MORE FRAMERATES APPLIED - and I-m not talking about the "Dragon-Upgrade"...



Come on Jim - show us how much you love us and give the birds the food they are "peeping" for...

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

The hardware upgrade is called "EPIC-X".

Scarlet-X & EPIC are both professional tools.

With the Scarlet-X you can reach 4K at common speeds.

With the EPIC-X you can reach 5K at any speeds.

2 tools : 2 different uses.

 

[Imran Farouk]

I believe it was said before...

Frame rates cost money....money that people would've kicked up another fit about if those above framerates were actually implemented, 5K at even 25fps, may have added another 1-5K to the amount, who knows, I don't know the numbers of per frame rate versus per dollar but

that is what was said before...so thats why EPIC-X costs so much...or even M...

Scarlet-X could get usable 5K but Scarlet-X I guess is aimed at people who aren't looking for crazy frame rates but rather a narrative or more so around those kind of projects that really don't need high FPS

EPIC is essentially, "look ma!NO HANDS!" kind of camera...its insane, its small, its described as a nuke reactor in a matchbox...its priced at that amount and its sold as that...

Like the #2 post says,

'2 Tools : 2 Different Uses'

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

If you give people much they'll still want more... that's how it is. I would like 24 fps at 5K and 120 fps at HD, and if this would be possible with a future Dragon update it would make the investment of my Scarlet-X even better. But it's important for people to acknowledge the difference between Epic and Scarlet. It's often 'the small things' that costs the most.

 

[Christian Jadot]

I just would like a 1.5K mode at 96 fps for some 720p stuff. I think it would be possible with just software.

 

[Phil Holland]

And here is what people like me have to compromise to:

To jump in from an outside opinion. I understand everybody's desire to want more.

It has been mentioned that Red will be, just as with their other cameras, producing functional upgrades to the software in camera. That may improve image performance, frame rates, control mechanices, etc..... There are no promises, but the specifications listed are what Scarlet X will ship with and is what will be available straight out of the box.

Now, when it comes to compromising. If you are working on a production for instance, for a modest Scarlet X package you are looking between $16k-$25k. If you are working on a production where "you don't want to compromise" rent an Epic and have it all. $25k gets you an Epic package for a good long time.

If Scarlet X has the ability to capture 24fps at 5K, many Epic owners and potential buyers will be left scratching their heads. There needs to be a separation in feature sets versus purchase price. Is there a feature gap between Epic and Scarlet? Yes. Can it be made smaller? Maybe.

When it comes to Scarlet X and what it has become everybody needs to realize we are getting something at a price point and feature set that has never, ever been done before. It's going to be a bit before other manufacturers even come to this playing field and the cost of entry is affordable compared to higher end 1080p systems. Somehow, Red's only real competition in the 4k and up market with comparative feature sets is Red themselves. And for those looking to work with Red gear and potentially upgrade to a more powerful camera having components that work within the system saves everybody money in the long run.

Let us also not forget the Dragon update. We have no idea what that upgrade will allow us to do with both the Epic and Scarlet X, but we do know that both systems can use it. Your big investment on a camera just became even better as likely within a year it can get even better.

There are no compromises here. There are different options for different budgets. 4K is where "everything" is going. For those who don't get that, there are many options for them at lesser through greater price points than the entry price of a Scarlet X. As time transpires more and more of the "money people" will want higher resolution capture as state of the art viewing technology becomes more common place in broadcast. In the feature world 4k has been a standard for a long time and higher resolutions are much easier to work with these days. For independents 4K will only help them sell their properties.

Just like many, I'm giving up a good chunk of change for a Scarlet X and I'm having a hard time finding any real downsides. This is not the opinion of a fanboy, but somebody who likes Red cameras and technology and makes a living doing this sort of thing. Full disclosure, I have to use many types of cameras from different companies. Scarlet X gives me a relatively affordable high end motion picture camera solution I can own and make money with.

 

[Eric Rodemann]

I guess it depends on what you are shooting. If you're shooting sports, like say soccer matches, then you might want to shoot with a high frame rate all the time so you can slo mo a big play.

If that's what you're doing, then Scarlet may not be the tool you need.

On the other hand, if you're shooting narratives, you should have a story board and know what you need slo mo shots for. Most narratives don't have any slo mo, or a few slo mo shots. You could rent an Epic for the specific days you need to shoot slo mo. Or I suppose you could get a phantom if you want some crazy slo mo.

What is it exactly you want to shoot slo mo?

 

[Hosam Abdulkader]

The hardware upgrade is called "EPIC-X".

Scarlet-X & EPIC are both professional tools.

With the Scarlet-X you can reach 4K at common speeds.

With the EPIC-X you can reach 5K at any speeds.

2 tools : 2 different uses.

This is the type of answer - I was hoping not to hear...

Never less...thank you for the effort of typing on your keyboard.

 

[Hosam Abdulkader]

To jump in from an outside opinion. I understand everybody's desire to want more.

It has been mentioned that Red will be, just as with their other cameras, producing functional upgrades to the software in camera. That may improve image performance, frame rates, control mechanices, etc..... There are no promises, but the specifications listed are what Scarlet X will ship with and is what will be available straight out of the box.

Now, when it comes to compromising. If you are working on a production for instance, for a modest Scarlet X package you are looking between $16k-$25k. If you are working on a production where "you don't want to compromise" rent an Epic and have it all. $25k gets you an Epic package for a good long time.

If Scarlet X has the ability to capture 24fps at 5K, many Epic owners and potential buyers will be left scratching their heads. There needs to be a separation in feature sets versus purchase price. Is there a feature gap between Epic and Scarlet? Yes. Can it be made smaller? Maybe.

When it comes to Scarlet X and what it has become everybody needs to realize we are getting something at a price point and feature set that has never, ever been done before. It's going to be a bit before other manufacturers even come to this playing field and the cost of entry is affordable compared to higher end 1080p systems. Somehow, Red's only real competition in the 4k and up market with comparative feature sets is Red themselves. And for those looking to work with Red gear and potentially upgrade to a more powerful camera having components that work within the system saves everybody money in the long run.

Let us also not forget the Dragon update. We have no idea what that upgrade will allow us to do with both the Epic and Scarlet X, but we do know that both systems can use it. Your big investment on a camera just became even better as likely within a year it can get even better.

There are no compromises here. There are different options for different budgets. 4K is where "everything" is going. For those who don't get that, there are many options for them at lesser through greater price points than the entry price of a Scarlet X. As time transpires more and more of the "money people" will want higher resolution capture as state of the art viewing technology becomes more common place in broadcast. In the feature world 4k has been a standard for a long time and higher resolutions are much easier to work with these days. For independents 4K will only help them sell their properties.

Just like many, I'm giving up a good chunk of change for a Scarlet X and I'm having a hard time finding any real downsides. This is not the opinion of a fanboy, but somebody who likes Red cameras and technology and makes a living doing this sort of thing. Full disclosure, I have to use many types of cameras from different companies. Scarlet X gives me a relatively affordable high end motion picture camera solution I can own and make money with.

Thanks for this nice and comprehensive answer Phil!

In my case....I´ve sold my beloved SONY FS-100, the RED-ZOOM 18-50mm and ALL other stuff, to effort the SCARLET...and I was hoping for a special bonus this device would offer - and by that I don´t mean 4K, RAW, or the RED Lable - to be honest...what I was looking for where the FPS...everythig above 50 or 60 frames are aimed and with that very welcome!

As I adjusted my plans and expectations on the long spread specs...I was a bit....perplex?

Neverless...it´s like cutting the SCARLET off - the privelege, having the option of shooting stunning slomo that could be used for example in commercials (that´s what I actually do mostly).

When you look at the EPIC for example: "IT IS A BEAST OF A CAMERA" with features, a filmmaker would never dream of - A REAL ALLROUND DEVICE!

When it comes to the SCARLET - I was hoping it, to be just a biiiiiiiiit more, than a tool for the narrative filmmaker or a cam, that captures images in "normal" framerates.

Beeing optimistic in seeing RED giving the indyfilmaker such a tool at an affordable pricepoint, I am still hoping for maybe a firmware update, that enables this little EXTRA-FRAMERATES, that I claim to be a part of the RED-DEVICE family.

That´s all....

 

[Hosam Abdulkader]

I guess it depends on what you are shooting. If you're shooting sports, like say soccer matches, then you might want to shoot with a high frame rate all the time so you can slo mo a big play.

If that's what you're doing, then Scarlet may not be the tool you need.

On the other hand, if you're shooting narratives, you should have a story board and know what you need slo mo shots for. Most narratives don't have any slo mo, or a few slo mo shots. You could rent an Epic for the specific days you need to shoot slo mo. Or I suppose you could get a phantom if you want some crazy slo mo.

What is it exactly you want to shoot slo mo?

Hi Eric - to be honest, If there would be a highspeed-cam that captures 1080p (at least 100 fps, 2/3, interchangable lenses) at the pricepoint of the SCARLET, I would jump to it without question.

Many people around me would have already bought the SCARLET - if it would have....

When it comes to the PHANTOM Cams....what should I say....it is like....one day....one day I will get you baby!

For what do I need higher framerates?

1. I am actually running a little buisness in producing commercials, that I try to seperate qualitywise from the "standard" - meaning: "I like it uncomplicated - having one camera, that gives me flexibility to work or express my ideas"
2. I am also a student, hoping to get my B.A. in the first quater 2012 - meaning: I have a very long list of movies and experiments I want to shoot -
3. I really looooove action and martial arts - that of course will be part of the stories I want to tell in my movies - and action + fps = VERY NICE!

Here is an example of a project, that is about to get to it´s end:



1.REISACHER MAGEFILM:

2.KINOSPOT:

THANK YOU FOR THE RESPONSE!

 

[Phil Holland]

When it comes to the SCARLET - I was hoping it, to be just a biiiiiiiiit more, than a tool for the narrative filmmaker or a cam, that captures images in "normal" framerates.

Beeing optimistic in seeing RED giving the indyfilmaker such a tool at an affordable pricepoint, I am still hoping for maybe a firmware update, that enables this little EXTRA-FRAMERATES, that I claim to be a part of the RED-DEVICE family.

I know exactly where you're coming from. And believe me, I too have a big love for slow motion. The good thing about Scarlet X right now is you will indeed get 60fps at 2k in REDCODE raw, but at the cost of focal length. Which gets you a 1080p stream of slow motion that meets what everything else out there currently does.

Right now I'm certain Red is focusing their efforts on camera production and back order fulfillment at the moment. This is good for all of us. It's already been mentioned that there might be a way to squeeze more out of Scarlet X in terms of adding more HDRx fps support. Once the dust has settled a bit after accessories, Epic Stages, and Scarlet X orders; Red will be able to focus on tweaking the software in camera for both systems to see how much more can be squeezed out of the hardware.

We don't know exactly what can be done just yet. I'm sure there's testing going on, but we have to have patience. Remember, until just recently "Scarlet" meant something else entirely. There are not 5,000 engineers on the hardware R&D team. Red's a small team making really big and powerful cameras. Luckily for us, they seem to be updating and pushing them often. And most of the time those efforts are free to the end user/shooter.

For me the vast majority of my work is at speed (24fps). If for some reason I need greater than that at 4k or 5k I'll rent an Epic for the day. For the time being I'll likely utilize the upscale and sharpen process on the 2k 60fps material that I've had to use on lower end cameras for years when bringing them up to snuff for big screen use to help match the 4k more seamlessly.

My first couple of weeks with Scarlet X will be a torrid camera test love affair. We need to skip the small talk and go right to the 3rd date so I know just how far she'll go

 

[Erik Franzén]

Don't buy a Scarlet expecting an EPIC...

 

[Eric Rodemann]

Hi Eric - to be honest, If there would be a highspeed-cam that captures 1080p (at least 100 fps, 2/3, interchangable lenses) at the pricepoint of the SCARLET, I would jump to it without question.

Many people around me would have already bought the SCARLET - if it would have....

When it comes to the PHANTOM Cams....what should I say....it is like....one day....one day I will get you baby!

For what do I need higher framerates?

1. I am actually running a little buisness in producing commercials, that I try to seperate qualitywise from the "standard" - meaning: "I like it uncomplicated - having one camera, that gives me flexibility to work or express my ideas"
2. I am also a student, hoping to get my B.A. in the first quater 2012 - meaning: I have a very long list of movies and experiments I want to shoot -
3. I really looooove action and martial arts - that of course will be part of the stories I want to tell in my movies - and action + fps = VERY NICE!

Here is an example of a project, that is about to get to it´s end:



1.REISACHER MAGEFILM:

2.KINOSPOT:

THANK YOU FOR THE RESPONSE!

Ok, very nice. I can see the need for the fast FPS. Can't get an Epic for a Scarlet price though.

 

[Ruben and Sheri O.]

Wish there was 2.4:1 5K

 

[Carlos Dueñas]

Here is what people like me only can dream of:


1-120 fps @ 5K RAW (Full Frame, 2:1, 2.4:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
4.5K RAW (2.4:1)

1-150 fps @ 4K RAW (16:9, HD, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)

1-200 fps @ 3K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)

1-300 fps @ 2K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)

Thats Epic-X, they will start selling them in 2012.

1-25 fps 5K FF (to get the 5K usable for motion)

1-60 fps 4K HD (to get the 4K usable for 2 x slowmotion)

1-100 fps 3K HD (to get the 3K usable for 4 x slowmotion) or at least at 2K

1-120 or 150 fps 1080p HD (for 6 x slowmotion)

1- 150 or 200 fps 1K

This is almost a Red One MX, only that is a 4.5K RAW camera, why dont you try one?

Having an S35 or APS-C sized Sensor-Coverage for motion is nothing special today - even with 1080p @60 fps - I know, I know...no RED CODE, 4K etc...

Do you really think that?

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

I would like 24 fps at 5K and 120 fps at HD, and if this would be possible with a future Dragon update it would make the investment of my Scarlet-X even better.

I just realized it doesn't cover 4.5K, if that could be achieved at 24fps (aspect ratio 2:1) it would allow the camera to make fully debayered 4K images.

 

[Hosam Abdulkader]

Thats Epic-X, they will start selling them in 2012.



This is almost a Red One MX, only that is a 4.5K RAW camera, why dont you try one?



Do you really think that?

The Red One is simply too bulky for my taste...

 

[Enrique Blein]

I really hope once the dust settles, Red will eventually implement a higher compression ratio for 120 fps at 2k on the Scarlet. Meanwhile, it'd be too close to the Epic-X. I felt I wanted to buy a Porsche (Scarlet), but they announced an Lamborghini (Epic-X) but without the 5th and 6th gear (I can still drive it, same engine and design, but not as fast). I'm adapting, that's the bottom line.

 

[Ruben and Sheri O.]

So does scarlet X do 24fps in 4k ? or are we missing something ,sorry for this stupid question be kind in response to our ignorance

 

[Enrique Blein]

yes to 24 at 4K