Proxy Module...

[Casey Green]

Lemo connectors aren't good for RF as WiFi antennas would require.

Most applications such as this requiring detachable RF antennas use something like a SMC style connector. They aren't recessed, so if you operate sans antennas, you'll have a couple of small stubs up top.

-sc

I see.

And that's what I'm getting at with the idea to mount them on the "dumb side" of the Camera using L adapters. But even better, they could mount with a Element Technica style V-Dock on the rods, etc...

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

is there a Geothermic Proxy module that extracts heat from the sensor to boil water for tea or french press for the crew? NOW that would save quite a bit on craft services and keep my DIT awake to keep transcoding via 4 Red Rocket at 4K FULL debayer at his DIT station located about 20 feet from the camera.

 

[Mark Pedersen]

RED is increasing the workflow flexibility on Epic and Scarlet with Proxy Modules… the first of which is an H.264 Module.

This module encodes a 1080P stream (high quality scale from full frame) and records to Compact Flash in a rear module. The module also offers secure password protected streaming over dedicated WiFi and ethernet to iPhones, iPads, laptops as well as broadcast to the internet.

This will be beneficial for on set viewing, instant dailies, offline editing, easy file transfer to remote locations, dailies review and collaboration services with such companies as Pix, or live broadcasting for realtime media distribution.

The modules will also support full metadata and XML for editorial.

Availability will be September 2010 and the price will be $2500.

Jim

So it's true. Freakin awesome!!

Thanks Jim!

M

 

[Manuel Wenger]

Red again proofed that obsolence is obsolete, with this module i even have a use for my old 8GB CF Cards

 

[Chris Hocking]

Could this module work with any of the 7000 RED Ones out there?

David has asked a very important question, but has yet to be answered. Will there be a similar solution for the RED ONE? I seriously doubt the RED ONE is going to go away any time soon, so once word gets out to directors and producers that they can view "instantlies" on their iPad on set when you shoot RED, they're going to be really disappointed if the camera crew rock up with an RED ONE and not an EPIC.

I wonder if it's TECHNICALLY possible to port the technology from the second-generation range (i.e. EPIC) to the first (i.e. RED ONE)?

As for the ProRes/DNxHD discussion... It will take much less hard drive space to just use R3Ds for offline and online than it will to have ProRes/DNxHD Proxies for the offline and R3Ds/DPXs for the online. Plus, if the online AND offline facility have copies of the R3Ds, then double the redundancy (keeping in mind there should always be more than three copies anyway...)! If storage and NLEs are able to afforably and effectively handle native R3Ds - then why have proxies at all? I don't see the need. Faster processors, cheaper drives, and devices like the ROCKET kill the need for proxies.

However, that said... I can also see RED coming out with their own "REDproxy" format - similar to ProRes/DNxHD/Cineform, that's open source, and will eventually be implimented on all the major platforms... But then again... why bother, if R3Ds solve all the major issues and make workflows SIMPLIER...

As someone who has been assistant editor on way too many RED productions (commercials, short form and longer form) to count, I can understand why everyone is yelling and screaming for ProRes/DNxHD support. But LONGTERM - I can't see it mattering all that much in the professional world... ALTHOUGH! For the Scarlet market - I can certainly see a need for a "REDproxy" format so that "kids and mums" can edit quickly and easily on their laptops (or even iPads?).

Just my 2c.

Chris!

 

[Peter Moretti]

Chris, what will work longterm does not help a production today.

The fact of the matter is that there is not one install of Avid MC that can read .R3D or ProRes or H.264 w/o a transcode. And well after MC 5 is released, most production house will still be using older versions of MC. So again, no plug-and-play ProRes, H.264 or .R3D.

Arri's Alexa has the neat motto "shoot > edit." Red has been getting hammered for not having a post workflow that fits into the existing post infrastructure. Well H.264 doesn't do that. Some open source proxy codec doesn't do that. The only proxy format that will work in the post evnironment that the largest films currently use today is DNxHD.

And it is for this very reason, Red should make a DNxHD proxy module. It's simple: shoot future proof 4K but edit/offline/TV-finish in easy to use DNxHD today. You get the best of both worlds.

Another complaint about the Red's workflow is the metadata management is a PITA. I don't believe there is a wrapper besides MXF that can accurately track all of Red's metadata. So DNxHD MXF files will allow you to have proxies that accurately and fully match the .R3D's.

Really, if Red wants to make inroads into the largest prodcutions--which Alexa is clearly aimed at--this is a no-brainer.

 

[David Battistella]

The only proxy format that will work in the post evnironment that the largest films currently use today is DNxHD.

Peter,

Is this a stretch? Are you talking LA or worldwide? I think ARRI probably would have gone with this codec if it was even close to the quality and acceptability of ProRes.

I think 9 of the 10 best picture nom's in '09 edited FCP (i might be wrong on that) but seriously, RED have chosen H.264 and Arri have chosen Prores. What does that tell you about the AVID codec for aquisition?

PS: I appreciate the passion of your arguement and you obviously love AVID but to expect either of these camera companies to create an AVID specific module is a bit much.

David

 

[Rex Teese]

David,
FCP was used on one of the best editing nominations (a serious man), but the rest were avid. As for the best picture nominations, One was edited on FCP, maybe two others. Please check your facts when posting something as lopsided as that.

As for dnxhd, it has been tested by many people along side of Apple prores and it's been concluded that both perform their functions for mastering very well. Either is a good option. For Hollywood big budget, Avid is the current workhorse and is deeply entrenched. For broadcast it could be said to be 50/50 and FCP takes the edge for indies.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

DNxXX is huge, but gone from a lot of major players here.

Wheter there is quality or practicallities in workflow integration causing that is a much discusse issue. Prores is the copy. DNx is the original. AFAIK they behave pretty much the same. On the FCP vs AVID discussion, I'd rather shout:

Duck! Violent,-passionate-and-emotional-stuff-that-might-hit-you-in-the-face-after- hitting the fan stuff going on!!! Don't go there. Find what fits you the best!

 

[David Battistella]

DNxXX is huge, but gone from a lot of major players here.

Wheter there is quality or practicallities in workflow integration causing that is a much discusse issue. Prores is the copy. DNx is the original. AFAIK they behave pretty much the same. On the FCP vs AVID discussion, I'd rather shout:

Duck! Violent,-passionate-and-emotional-stuff-that-might-hit-you-in-the-face-after- hitting the fan stuff going on!!! Don't go there. Find what fits you the best!

I don't know if the module could be programmed into different flavours and I really do not want to engange in a very onld AVID vs. FCP debate (especially with free lightworks next month).

The RED module will deliver the same format that HDSLR's are delivering H.264 but most likely with much better image quality. So the workflow into AVID or FCP will be the same as HDSLR.

H.264, for most people, will mean a transcode to DNXHD or PRORES. Everyone wins.

David

 

[Jörgen Persson]

H.264, for most people, will mean a transcode to DNXHD or PRORES. Everyone wins.

David

You mean everyone lose. Why on earth would you prefer transcoding over a native NLE codec?

Arri use ProRes for the Alexa and Aaton use DNxHD for the Penelope Digital Mag. Both are much easier to handle than H.264 since they are intraframe codecs and optimized for editing.

I think an H.264 module is a great addition and perfect for all departments - except for editorial.

Personally, I would buy a DNxHD module in a heartbeat.

 

[Tom.Wong]

New avid is supporting direct h264 support, cs5 does too. FCP will be next in line to do so whenever they get around to it, it's inevitable. It's not about if, it's just about when. The important thing is that h264 is small in file size, can look really good even with all that compression, it's natively cross platform with no need to install anything but quicktime, and gives the support needed to stream via wireless to iphone ipad etc. I don't see how pro ress or dnxhd can stream to those various technologies. My iphone doesn't play pro res or dnxhd.

 

[Tim Morten]

You mean everyone lose. Why on earth would you prefer transcoding over a native NLE codec?

Arri use ProRes for the Alexa and Aaton use DNxHD for the Penelope Digital Mag. Both are much easier to handle than H.264 since they are intraframe codecs and optimized for editing.

I think an H.264 module is a great addition and perfect for all departments - except for editorial.

Personally, I would buy a DNxHD module in a heartbeat.

The "R3D module" is the best module of all... everything else is a compromise.

Why use DNxHD when Avid offers direct support for R3D?

 

[Stacey Spears]

Both are much easier to handle than H.264 since they are intraframe codecs and optimized for editing.

There is an intraframe version of H.264.

For the 7000+ RED ONEs, there is always the Black Magic box. http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/h264prorecorder/

 

[David Battistella]

You mean everyone lose.

No. I mean everyone wins because H.264 means no more dallies transcoding. Of course people will still finish r3d unless it is for some sports broadcaster or something, but you can't force people to use r3d, if they want to edit h.264 and call that RED that's there business.

Red chose a widely accepted standard for a proxy module that does one thing. makes dallies on the fly. you love dnxhd say hello to RED Rocket™™ and r3d and transcode your ass off.


David

 

[Stefan Christou]

So anyway... It's just one module, and a good start. DNXHD or Prores would also be great. But this has a certain amount of wow factor about it due to the wifi streaming.

Call me crazy but I'd love a reasonably priced and lightweight gyro module. Could stack a couple in there, one near the front of a group of modules, one at the back.

Some kind of Red Gyro would be cool anyway

 

[Jörgen Persson]

New avid is supporting direct h264 support.

Why use DNxHD when Avid offers direct support for R3D?

Because they aren't offering direct support for R3D or H.264. But they will when they ship v5 in June. And because it's a future product it will take a long time before all companies have upgraded.
DNxHD proxies would have the current and former generation (Adrenaline) of Avids up to snuff when it comes to editing Red media smoothly. Without upgrading.

Don't get me wrong. I love new features and I'm currently a beta tester for Avid v5 - which is spectacular.
I'm just being realistic in how it works in the real world.
Even a technologically advanced picture like Avatar used Avids that were a couple of versions older than what was being offered at the time of post production. Because if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The important thing is that h264 is small in file size, can look really good even with all that compression, it's natively cross platform with no need to install anything but quicktime, and gives the support needed to stream via wireless to iphone ipad etc. I don't see how pro ress or dnxhd can stream to those various technologies. My iphone doesn't play pro res or dnxhd.

My previous post clearly states that I think an H.264 module is a great idea. Getting dailies in the hands of all the departments of a film is a tremendous feature for reference and continuity.
Just don't let any self-conscious actors get their hands on the dailies. It could ruin their performance :laugh:

Red chose a widely accepted standard for a proxy module that does one thing. makes dallies on the fly. you love dnxhd say hello to RED Rocket™™™™™™ and r3d and transcode your ass off.
David

You don't seem to get my point.
I don't want to transcode - not from R3D and not from H.264 or any other format. I want to edit.

You buy the H.264 module and I buy the DNxHD module when or if Red releases one. More choices for the customer and more business for Red.
If that's not win-win, then what is?

 

[David Battistella]

You buy the H.264 module and I buy the DNxHD module when or if Red releases one. More choices for the customer and more business for Red.
If that's not win-win, then what is?

OK. You do the business model on that DNXHD module for RED, show them that doing the R&D, producing the module and figuring out how many units RED would sell to recover their costs and make a profit.

How much money do you think a DNXHD module would make RED. Come on.

David

 

[Jay Gannon]

Is it just me or are a lot of people missing the point of this module?
Its not a delivery module its a dailies/proxy module... Hence H264.

Your deliverable should always be R3d coming off set.

 

[David Battistella]

Is it just me or are a lot of people missing the point of this module?
Its not a delivery module its a dailies/proxy module... Hence H264.

Your deliverable should always be R3d coming off set.

I agree with you totally.

David