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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Protecting Epic brand by NOT renting cameras at sub-market rates

Evin Grant said:
Technically that's price fixing and illegal, anti-trust yada yada, but that said I hope my fellow Epic owners will be judicious in the application of discounts.
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If this market is not careful, the Epic will fall the way of the RED One and RED MX. too many people are flooding the market with Epics already, and it's a renters market. Is this what you want?

Even 5DMKII's are holding their rental price, and they cost $2,400.00, and rent for $175.00 per day. Original RED's cost $60,000 (w/package). and rent for less that $400.00 per day. RED costs 25 times more money, yet may rent for just 2.5 times the rental of a 5D.

Von

Von
 
once X gets out, you better bet your ass prices are going to red one mx levels.. it will be essentially the same prices we are seeing for red mx.. why? $19.5 for a basic shooting package is cheaper than the original red one basic shooting package.. hence Why i want no part in the rental game
 
Your local rental market is what it is and you can't control it. You adapt.

Any experienced Red owner will tell you that you should never purchase a camera if you expect to rely completely on rentals. If you are, you're setting yourself up for financial failure. Dino seems to be just fine. He seems to work 6 days a week, but is it because he has an R1 or an Epic? Nah. It's because he's a well-respected professional with a long resume and talent. You should be renting yourself, not your camera; that's just a part of the package.

If you're a rental house, you'll rent at competitive rates to get more business. And there's always going to be the assholes that undercut everyone. But, what are you going to do about it? Break his knees?

Capitalism, baby.
 
This is one of the tradeoffs of a powerful technology being made "relatively" affordable. It allows more people in, and therefore opens up the possibility that competition will drive the price down. Although I'm not a fan of price fixing, I am a fan of being respectful of the industry and standards. In the end I think it's better for everyone. Doesn't mean that every Epic has to go out there at top dollar, but there should be a baseline. Obviously there will always be exceptions. Clients you have a longstanding relationship with, etc. may have a different pricing structure altogether. But if someone is renting their Epic at $75/day hopefully there is a good reason for doing so, as it doesn't do much good for everyone else.

I know this subject gets touchy, and there will be legal jargon thrown around, but ultimately I still feel there is something to be said for adhering to a reasonable range, whatever that is deemed to be by the market.
 
I think all the people who got R1 and are renting it for dirt cheap are not getting an Epic. They can't afford it. They have learned they can't make any money renting their R1 for $250/day. All the people I know in Texas killing the R1 rental market can't afford to maintain their R1. Epic isn't even an option for them.


Dusty
 
sergio arguello said:
Like to hear thoughts about this and what is expected of the chosen M owners...
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People are free to rent for whatever they want, people are free to work for whatever wages they want. If you're doing nothing and you charge $100/day to DoP with your Epic that's your business, (or non-business). The way to protect the Epic brand is to produce good video, not by restricting availability. Water seeks it's own level, for some Directors I work cheap, for others I won't work for any price. I can make far more money renting out my backhoe than I will ever make by renting out a camera.
 
For what's it's worth, I did okay with my R1 for the following reasons:
1. I had a client base which led to more clients.
2. I charged a fair market rate
3. My camera was well maintained and had some key accessories.

Now, I've incorporated it into our production work and it pays for itself in different ways. So, to George's point, it really is what the owner of the camera wants to do with it. All I can say is that I'm glad that I didn't rent it out at $200/day and have the crap beat out of it. I'm okay with how I did things.
 
Von Thomas; said:
Even 5DMKII's are holding their rental price, and they cost $2,400.00, and rent for $175.00 per day.
Von
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I'm sorry, I have to call bullshit here.

The 5D doesn't rent for shit. It's the "free camera" now. People scoop rentals on these all the time with "oh, my friend is just giving us the camera, and you don't mind shooting on it and an f4.5/5.6 kit lens right? That's cool right? We got it for free"

Try $50/day if you are lucky.

Supply and demand dictate the prices.

I saw some kid at Showbiz expo with an mX for $300/day. Crap accessories, no-nothing operator. But it's a "great deal!"
 
If you want to make money renting, then get the GLASS. As more and more EPICs come out the price will fall further and further. However, high quality lenses will ALWAYS be at a premium because they are so damn expensive. So if you can combine your EPIC with some high quality glass then you can still get good rental money.
 
Dan Kanes said:
I'm sorry, I have to call bullshit here.

The 5D doesn't rent for shit. It's the "free camera" now. People scoop rentals on these all the time with "oh, my friend is just giving us the camera, and you don't mind shooting on it and an f4.5/5.6 kit lens right? That's cool right? We got it for free"

Try $50/day if you are lucky.

Supply and demand dictate the prices.

I saw some kid at Showbiz expo with an mX for $300/day. Crap accessories, no-nothing operator. But it's a "great deal!"
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There are low ball prices.

I have a 7D.

It goes for $100/Day. I'll rent it to anyone who can put a $1699 cash deposit down, or who has insurance with an outfit I know. The kit lens has its own rate and deposit. Basically I don't care if it rents- so I keep prices up. And by up, I mean I undercut my local rental houses by a few bucks.

I include the camera and a kit lens in my day rate, if and only if I am hired as DP. This helps me keep up the day rate.

When I finally get my Epic (and I'm tending towards either an M or an X with Titanium mount) I'll keep the 7D on there as a "freebie" I was thinking that the Epic M package would rent for $1000/Day at least at first, and customers would still have to rent lenses. My Epic will only be rented with my services as DIT, AC, Operator or DP - in other words I'll be there with it, or it won't work. (Plus insurance or replacement value deposit!)

I'm pretty sure I can make acceptable money on the Epic M down to $400/day if I had to. About 145 days of rental to pay her off. The real profit is in ME working though.

That and having my own Epic for my projects!
 
No doubt, supply and demand will have it's effect. I do assume the more expensive Epics will maintain a better price than the R1. Like I assume the Alexa will (at $70+k). I do think Epic smokes the Alexa at this point in time.

Prost,
Rich
 
Steve Sherrick said:
For what's it's worth, I did okay with my R1 for the following reasons:
1. I had a client base which led to more clients.
2. I charged a fair market rate
3. My camera was well maintained and had some key accessories.

Now, I've incorporated it into our production work and it pays for itself in different ways. So, to George's point, it really is what the owner of the camera wants to do with it. All I can say is that I'm glad that I didn't rent it out at $200/day and have the crap beat out of it. I'm okay with how I did things.
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Whoa $200/uSd man i thought competition was stiff in India but still R1 goes for $400/usd per day , and it includes only hardware nothing else.
 
Agree we get 5d here for $90 with lenses. And R1 still at $350-$400 range.
 
Not easy,

here in Italy, been that we are the first and only ones with Epic cameras, no one has a price for it, but as an example the Alexa is renting with 50% off rental listing,
as people sadly do do large budget restrains are renting DSLR's... ;)

Thank God we are not in the rental business... ;)
 
Dustin Cross said:
I think all the people who got R1 and are renting it for dirt cheap are not getting an Epic. They can't afford it. They have learned they can't make any money renting their R1 for $250/day. All the people I know in Texas killing the R1 rental market can't afford to maintain their R1. Epic isn't even an option for them.


Dusty
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+1 here. This is a very valid point. I'd like to think the opportunists have been once bitten twice shy!
But inevitably a relativly affordable camera that comes to the market en mass will create an over supply with inevitable consequences :-(
(Nothing wrong with opportunists, Jim is a very successful opportunist :-) but at the end of the day the hire market is secondary and any good operator/DP will be able to charge according to his/her talent. You get what you pay for !!
 
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We can count on the glass to stay reasonably priced over the years, but then I start seeing people who refused to shoot on RPP's , that are now very pleased with them, and even more because there cheaper;
then it happens all over again, they know somebody who knows somebody that even wants to give them for free because these persons don't have any other jobs to do...

would be great if all Epic owners remain fair and try to negociate to have realistic rental figures.
(I know some markets have failed doing so, but there must be a way to protect everyone over here.... If you want Epic, you have to pay for Epic; I really hope the R1 remains it value.

We know Red might have some plans with the refurbished r1's , might be good if well thought out, might be destructive for the market if every musicvid ends up shot on a free school camera... Even the premium for a Epic might become to much when Scarlet s35 is here.
For myself I must honestly say , I've never been to keen on a light model,
 
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