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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ProRes and Weapon

Paul E. McCarthy said:
I also don't like that one of the big promoters of the non-existent Meizler module is now selling a line of 3rd party modules.
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Because ... you don't want choices? Huh?

Paul, do you only use kit from the manufacturer of the camera you shoot with?

But yeah, I'm with you Paul - RED did not deliver any modules for EPIC that really performed for the demanding, high-end users. I'm going to try to do something about that. Maybe I'll succeed - maybe I will fail - but I'm gonna to give it my all and then some.

Sorry you don't approve.

It amazes me how angry people get at RED for not delivering a ProRes module - but everyone is all still warm and fuzzy with ARRI still not delivering a 4K sensor.
 
Paul E. McCarthy said:
I also don't like that one of the big promoters of the non-existent Meizler module is now selling a line of 3rd party modules.
Click to expand...

I don't understand this comment at all. Why? Are you apposed to all 3rd parties or just this one? Seems like nothing but a good thing that 3rd parties can now develop modules. Its what a lot of people have been asking for since the inception of the EPIC. That particular module never shipped and Mark stepped up and decided to build a product that people want. He listens to feedback. I see it as a win win. I personally plan to buy one of his Weapon modules myself.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Yes - the 3D LUT or CDL is just stored in meta-data in the QT wrapper - non-destructive. The NLE reads it and lets the GPU apply the color transform in realtime.

THIS is going to be the new workflow of choice. Apple is working on it - Avid is working on it - Adobe already did it.
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This is a good idea. I just hope they have an on/off option in the various tools. Maybe an indicator that a 3D LUT is attached to the file. I have been bitten a number of times by images with embedded ICC profiles. I HATE ICC so much!
 
Stacey Spears said:
This is a good idea. I just hope they have an on/off option in the various tools. Maybe an indicator that a 3D LUT is attached to the file. I have been bitten a number of times by images with embedded ICC profiles. I HATE ICC so much!
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Yeah you can on/off - Premiere just creates a LUMETRI Effect from the 3D LUT. I have heard it is already working in the newest version of AVID but I have yet to test and confirm.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Because ... you don't want choices? Huh?

Paul, do you only use kit from the manufacturer of the camera you shoot with?

But yeah, I'm with you Paul - RED did not deliver any modules for EPIC that really performed for the demanding, high-end users. I'm going to try to do something about that. Maybe I'll succeed - maybe I will fail - but I'm gonna to give it my all and then some.

Sorry you don't approve.

It amazes me how angry people get at RED for not delivering a ProRes module - but everyone is all still warm and fuzzy with ARRI still not delivering a 4K sensor.
Click to expand...

I use an Epic Dragon, with arri ff, and mattebox. with a RED 5 inch.
I have used the Pix, and the samurai, and having another monitor that has to be powered and managed is frankly a pain in the ass.

I bought the Pro IO and after 6 months of r&d I got them to refund my money because it never met its description.

I saw the the Meizler Module which was raved about and thought that there would soon be a Pro Res Module like pretty much everyone seemed to think.

I then upgraded to Dragon thinking, " 6k now..., there will definitely be a ProRes module" and instead got offered a Rocket X, and then an upgrade path to Weapon.

Mark- It makes total sense that you would be making modules since you were one of the only people that used the Meizler, congratulations on your success and I totally approve of what you are doing. My comment came off nasty sounding, I apologize, but in the rearview mirror it all looks a little sketch and in turn it makes me weary of the RED camera system which is my primary camera system.


"It amazes me how angry people get at RED for not delivering a ProRes module - but everyone is all still warm and fuzzy with ARRI still not delivering a 4K sensor."

I think its been proven over and over, mostly by Roger Deakins with Skyfall, that 4k resolution isn't mandatory for Theatrical Distribution. The way a cameras resolves is more important than the resolution. The Resolution War needs to end, it just panders to Television Manufacturers.

I think that 4k was very important in the early builds of REDone in order to hide noise and the ruddyness, but MX and Dragon's improvement in Dynamic range has countered that necessity.

I think all the RED cameras are great I have 0 complaints. I just wish I could I pull a downscaled ProRes off of the SSD card some how like I was promised.
 
Paul E. McCarthy said:
Mark- It makes total sense that you would be making modules since you were one of the only people that used the Meizler, congratulations on your success and I totally approve of what you are doing. My comment came off nasty sounding, I apologize, but in the rearview mirror it all looks a little sketch and in turn it makes me weary of the RED camera system which is my primary camera system.
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Understood. RED has always swung for the fences - and, especially in the early days, they liked to announce everything they intended to make to get everyone excited. But it's hard to make stuff and get it out there in a "timely fashion" at a price that makes the most folks happy. I'm not going to speak for RED - but I can tell you nothing was sketch. I'm pretty sure Jarred & Jim would like to get back all the money and the time they spent on trying to build the Meizler Module. Sometimes, when you make a mistake, or bet on the wrong jockey - it's better to adjust and move forward in another way instead of digging in and re-doing it. Anyway - don't be weary - IMO RED has never had as promising of a future as they do now. Many surprises in the pipeline. Let's have a beer sometime.
 
Paul, I think the module is a great concept, it just has not lived up to everyone's expectations... Yet! Hopefully that will change with Weapon.

In the case of the Red ProRes they showed at NAB, I recall a number of complaints. In order to keep the cost down, they used the HDMI output from the brain. This gave it the same limitations the 3rd party ProRes boxes had with shooting high speed, for example. For them to not use the HDMI output, they would need to include similar functionality to the Pro I/O, to decode and debayer the R3D files, and probably cost a lot more than people would want to spend. This is all just speculation on my part based on comments made around the time it was announced.
 
Umm in response to last few comments. Am I missing something. I thought the deal here is that the pro rez files are recorded directly and 'immaculately' to the mini-mag - no module. It may not be your intention but you are making it sound like you will still need a model with weapon to record pro-rez.

It is my understanding modules will be a thing of the past.
 
Tarquin Cardona said:
Umm in response to last few comments. Am I missing something. I thought the deal here is that the pro rez files are recorded directly and 'immaculately' to the mini-mag - no module. It may not be your intention but you are making it sound like you will still need a model with weapon to record pro-rez.

It is my understanding modules will be a thing of the past.
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Paul was talking about existing DSMC cameras - not Weapon cameras.

Modules are not a thing of the past - they are a thing of the future. There is NO I/O on the Weapon other than two RED EVF/LCD connections. You actually MUST have some module if you want any I/O (SDI, HDMI, TC in, etc. etc.) other than the two RED EVF/LCD connections.

You are correct - you don't need a module to record ProRes on any Weapon camera. Paul wan't talking about Weapon.
 
No prob. i just started to fear i misunderstood. And I was thinking Weapon. Realize some mods needed depending on your needs. But what makes weapon so appealing is the power in a non-cludge package.
 
To expand on what Mark is talking about regarding Weapon.

Modules exist and will exist for some time to come for Weapon.

At the moment RED has several "Expander" modules that add I/O or special functionality to the camera brain. And the good news is all of these things can be bolted directly to the camera without a module adapter. Powering the Weapon you have a few options coming. Element Technica has created the V-Lock and Gold-Lock (Anton Bauer) Battery Plates and RED has the Weapon REDVOLT XL Module. Additionally, you can slug a single REDVOLT to the WEAPON REDVOLT Expander and run for a few minutes that way. If you have a 3rd party adapter that goes to LEMO you can also power the Weapon Brain, just not as "tidy".

Mark's upcoming OMOD Modules are the result of RED opening up the development or Weapon accessories to 3rd parties and OFFHOLLYWOOD is focused on creating "production friendly/wanted" modules with more I/O, Timecode, syncing options, as well as some other features.

Something important to remember regarding Weapon is that it does have built in WiFi connectivity, so you'll be able to control the camera and maybe some other things we don't know about through tablets and smart devices. Foolcontrol for instance has been gaining steam in use on sets and it will be fairly trivial to connect to a Weapon and operate it's controls.
 
Evolve or die

Evolve or die

The methods employed by professional camera operators are based on fingertip access (or remote TX module + AC) to particular control functions and the ability to easily interchange high quality lenses. Professional acquisition typically requires interconnectivity to the camera as part of an interdependent system (audio, director/client monitoring, TC/genlock, etc) using robust connectors, proper rigging. Such cameras require more engineering and parts content which makes them more expensive to produce - this feeds the rental house, studio, broadcast markets, but prices out many potential owner operators. Then...

RED chose to leverage the economies of scale with the $17,500 RedOne release and won the underserved middle market, as well as making serious inroads in the high end. As a seasoned owner-op of previous camera packages I was aware that it would take at the very minimum another $17K to have a working kit and more likely double the body cost which meant it was a $50K package if you wanted to vend to the pro market. That was still a good value proposition and the chance to avoid expensive tape infrastructure was very appealing. (I also loved the RAW playground.)

Of course, you don't have to vend to the "industry". A number of very talented folks went out and cobbled together "shootable" kits primarily for their own use and captured some terrific images in a very robust format. Most importantly, RED managed to make their volume based bet pay off so they could keep developing better cameras. Anyone not want better cameras? Of course the higher up that mountain you climb, the more your costs start to look like the other guys costs. Good engineers don't come cheap.

Perhaps the 2015 analog to that 2007 market inflection equation is making the next generation of RED cameras popular with both the "shoot to edit" workflows as well as those of us who consider RAW files a huge benefit. If that means the Weapon will into both the mid-market and the high end - then perhaps RED can once again create a win-win outcome. Higher volumes cut unit costs, which allows lower price points for RedUsers and good profitability for RED. Fortunately, the existing Epic/Scarlet Dragons will still be relevant and rentable in most markets even after the Weapon ships - don't forget, many people are "trading in" their Epics/Scarlets in the upgrade path (RED harvests potions of the Dragon sensor block) which means the total number of RED Dragons competing for the available jobs will not suddenly jump.

Cheers - #19
 
Id be surprised if that just wasn't a typo/oversight
 
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