ProRes and Weapon

[David Battistella]

This discussion was moved from the built in ND thread that ended up getting jacked with a pretty interesting prores discussion.

So now it is here and has it's own name.



I said before. I'll say it again.

Weapon Dragon needs 6k prores.

You want "that"market. 2k ain't gonna cut it. The RAW battle is all but lost in "that" market. (If we really kid ourselves into thinking this is all about prores).

If you don't have to use the processing power to scale it, it's probably doable. It's a lot more processing to scale images than to pass through the frame size.


Updated: Prores specs out at 5120x2160

https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/docs/Apple_ProRes_White_Paper.pdf
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT200224

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

6K pro rez. Now that is upgrade!!!!

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I said before. I'll say it again.

Weapon Dragon needs 6k prores.

Disagree 100%.

Weapon needs UHD (3.8K) ProRes recording. Even if, to pull it off, it's UHD (3.8K) ProRes without any RAW at the same time.

If they can pull that off - truth is - more people will TEST it vs. 6K/8K RAW + HD Prores for editorial. So ... even though it goes against RED's "RAW DNA" - fact is - IMO - MORE folks will end up shooting 6K/8K RAW on Weapons if they also pull off and/allow UHD (3.8K) ProRes recording.

It will just get MORE productions to consider the camera - then in testing - they will see - the best solution is 6K/8K RAW + HD/2K ProRes for editorial. It will sell more cameras. Period.

6K ProRes is actually the most stupid thing I can think of. No offense David - you know I love you

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Yes Mark. Weapon needs 4K UHD. I am afraid no matter how much love we bestow on our Dragons etc here - out there the lack of that is gonna get just another shrug - another eye roll - and another 'they just don't get it'.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

that is gonna get just another shrug - another eye roll - and another 'they just don't get it'.

Maybe. But I'm an optimist. I also know that APPLE is very strict on ProRes licensing and I don't think they let you officially announce specs until that spec works 100% and is tested.

It will be a very BIG MISTAKE is RED can do it - and they choose not to do it. Again, Jim is 100% right - RAW is where it is at.

But if ProRes helps get you to get scared, brain washed folks to come over and test a camera that has the EASIEST RAW of any camera ... well ... you gotta be nuts not to do that.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Mark... You've been giving this some thought, and have an idea of workflows and signal bandwidth...

David. You rock. We have never really found common ground on the prores thing, though

Prores should add functionality (and as Mark says, give people a realistic option to find out that RED RAW might be better)
There are scenarios where I can see that a a prores-encoded log file from a scaled uncompressed signal might have the edge over (at least 8:1+ compressed) RED RAW.

And 1080/2k/UHD are the leveraging formats to get into consideration (methinks)

Love RED RAW, but that's kinda besides the point.

 

[David Battistella]

No one loves raw more than me.

And i'm in no way offended!

here is the logic.

Lets to say you want to nail the feature market (as we are being told)

if RAW is what makes the difference, the overwhelming choice would already be RED (and I'm talking about ARRI type numbers in that tier of production here)

but it's not. Clearly, factually, they don't actually give a shit. The majority, They want it easy. Prores, shoot, edit, easy. 2k. They don't care. We see this over and over.

Enter weapon. While ARRI moves to 3.8k why do you think 3.8k is going to be enough to move to dragon.

Dc2 RLF.

Sensitivity, check
skintone, chevk
dr, check
formfactor, check
prores 2k only, next

so what's attractive about a 6k prores.

1. This level of DP is comfortable baking in ISO and WB, they do it every day on Alexa.
2. Reframing possibilities and the extra resolution helps.
3. Familiar workflow
4. Raw backup
5. 6k prores

admit it mark. Those last 5 things are things you could sell and would help MOVE dp's
apples for apples, they ain't gonna budge or if they do, it's to be first, but will RED keep them? History shows that many tried the night on the town but went back to the wife.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

No one loves raw more than me.

And i'm in no way offended!

here is the logic.

Lets to say you want to nail the feature market (as we are being told)

if RAW is what makes the difference, the overwhelming choice would already be RED (and I'm talking about ARRI type numbers in that tier of production here)

but it's not. Clearly, factually, they don't actually give a shit. The majority, They want it easy. Prores, shoot, edit, easy. 2k. They don't care. We see this over and over.

Almost every feature film that shoots ARRI shoots RAW now that the XT does it on board. It is the episodic TV market that shoots ProRes.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Seeing as we are all over this right now. I totally 100% back the idea of at least 4KUHD in Weapon. If it were me - my gift to my troops would be to give the loyal this up front at a discount. Why? Because those who believe and have believed in Red are not the prob.

I know Raw is best. But my industry friends just smile and call me 'Owner Op.' It's not that I don't use other cameras. I do. I have even shot with Sony FS7 recently which now is 4K does 60fps and had built in ND and they fixed their magenta cast in two months! Just saying. And it sucks not.

So what we are discussing here is more what you would do if you were a camera company with a good camera and a bit of a dinged rep. And now being flanked by the Mini which is basically a revised version of your camera with the specs and look the industry wants.

You have to get mad as hell. And you need to put the power in the hands of your loyal fast, affordably and hope to win the hearts and minds.

 

[David Battistella]

we are all RAW lovers. Red lovers.

Why I am a bit baffled.

RED has an amazing CODEC called REDCODE RAW. They own it it is theirs and it's pretty brilliant.

Now, If you are going to go out and BUY/License the use of a third party codec why just offer a 2K prores file. It's LATE. That would have been perfect for EPIC and dragon starting three years ago. Doing it now in this way is not the forward thinking I have become accustomed to at RED.

So this is why I say. Just pass through the camera resolution to the ProRes file. You bought the tech, why limit it? It does not mean RED has quit on RAW, it means they are aggressively competing for that business. (if that is the stated objective)

But I just think (and I have no skin in this game because I am completely thrilled with my camera and my workflow) that if you want to use the Weapon Dragon to "slay the dragon" so to speak, then it ain't going to be by declaring a tie (3.8K to 3.8K prores) but by going for the WIN, 6K prores file from my 6K Dragon.

If RED did this, it would not shatter my belief in RAW or make me shoot prores. It would make me happy that they were trying to kick some more ass.

 

[PC Greene]

David I completely agree with you and after years of watching the NLE makers catch up to be compatible with R3D's can't believe Proros is baked in (and undoubtably raising costs). I also believe Apple wanted a LOT more for 4K hence the 2K limit and personally couldn't care less about it.

Thank you,

we are all RAW lovers. Red lovers.

Why I am a bit baffled.

RED has an amazing CODEC called REDCODE RAW. They own it it is theirs and it's pretty brilliant.

Now, If you are going to go out and BUY/License the use of a third party codec why just offer a 2K prores file. It's LATE. That would have been perfect for EPIC and dragon starting three years ago. Doing it now in this way is not the forward thinking I have become accustomed to at RED.

So this is why I say. Just pass through the camera resolution to the ProRes file. You bought the tech, why limit it? It does not mean RED has quit on RAW, it means they are aggressively competing for that business. (if that is the stated objective)

But I just think (and I have no skin in this game because I am completely thrilled with my camera and my workflow) that if you want to use the Weapon Dragon to "slay the dragon" so to speak, then it ain't going to be by declaring a tie (3.8K to 3.8K prores) but by going for the WIN, 6K prores file from my 6K Dragon.

If RED did this, it would not shatter my belief in RAW or make me shoot prores. It would make me happy that they were trying to kick some more ass.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

I have not been on Reduser that long. But some of the people weighing in here I would say are 'consigliere' level. And if they are of the opinion that things like this are important for Red then Red should listen. I mean it is a heck of a lot easier for any of us to simply pick up another tool when we get sick of one thing or another. So most of this free advice is really coming I think from those who have had Red's back for years. I continue to feel that the move would be to aim for ProRez 4KUHD, an ND if you can swing it - and price this for the loyal to get this in their hands. Why? Because the 70+K crowd for the most part have made up their mind. And Red will need every man woman and child they can muster in the field saying that all the trash you say about Red is so yesterday. If they lose those troops in large numbers it will not be pretty. Because for example Game of Throne would be more than happy to put Minis on their gimbals to simplify life - and they have 70K lying around to be choosy.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Almost every feature film that shoots ARRI shoots RAW now that the XT does it on board. It is the episodic TV market that shoots ProRes.

Exactly

 

[David Battistella]

When the prores module argument happened, I took mountains of heat for being against it. There were already good third party frankenrig solutions and I mostly advocated for inexpensive all OS post solutions which could crunch r3d files for people. So people have been frankenriging HD prores on epics with atoms, sound devices, etc. and now might with 400$ solutions being offered at NAB 2015.

I got it then and I get it now. HD Prores from a 6k sensor is like recording an HD video tap and throwing away the film. Prores is a very widely accepted codec and with XQ added it's a very capable acquisition codec.

So weapon offering it now should be the highest best quality available not a resolution limited proxy file.

Prores has always been a slippery slope. Now it's in the mix.

I'd be for offering THE BEST prores. Sure, RAW is better, but if "that" market wants prores, give them the best prores file your sensor can throw at it.

David I completely agree with you and after years of watching the NLE makers catch up to be compatible with R3D's can't believe Proros is baked in (and undoubtably raising costs). I also believe Apple wanted a LOT more for 4K hence the 2K limit and personally couldn't care less about it.

Thank you,

 

[David Battistella]

Exactly

Then why bother using all that processing power on scaled 2k proxies? Are they going to be locked to you can't online with them? I doubt it.

And I don't buy the "draw them in with prores and then they'll understand RAW better argument." Any DP worth their salt knows the difference. It weak.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Then why bother using all that processing power on scaled 2k proxies? Are they going to be locked to you can't online with them? I doubt it.

And I don't buy the "draw them in with prores and then they'll understand RAW better argument." Any DP worth their salt knows the difference. It weak.

Agree. I am not sure this raw or pro res argument per se matters. What matters is that the other guy is simply gonna say Red a) doesn't understand my needs b) doesn't get it period or c) can't figure out how to do it. So Red needs pretty pro res in 4K to thumb their nose at everyone. Any excuses, explanations, workarounds, best practice discussions will be ignored. It is gonna be walk the walk as talk is cheap time. 2K proxies is gonna be 'whatever'.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Then why bother using all that processing power on scaled 2k proxies? Are they going to be locked to you can't online with them? I doubt it.

And I don't buy the "draw them in with prores and then they'll understand RAW better argument." Any DP worth their salt knows the difference. It weak.

But DP's are pretty often NOT calling the shots on which camera is used.
And (playing the devils advocate here), many would prefer a baked look, because they feel that post fucks up their images "because you can do so much in post".

But we don't have to agree on this. We just see it from different views.
None is really ultimately "right".

 

[roryhinds]

are Red reading this thread? Really 4K ProRes is the only way, everything around us is all 4KUHD so not to offer that is crazy town.
Not to mention Red is all about 4K and beyond.

 

[David Battistella]

I agree with you G. It's not about being right.

The guys who wanted prores the most were those owner ops looking to extend the use of their camera and deliver quick turnaround jobs to a wider client base and generate a bit more income using the same camera without frankenriging.

The feature, TV series, commercials market has the money to throw at these problems and prores is not the deal breaker.

But if its there now.....

But DP's are pretty often NOT calling the shots on which camera is used.
And (playing the devils advocate here), many would prefer a baked look, because they feel that post fucks up their images "because you can do so much in post".

But we don't have to agree on this. We just see it from different views.
None is really ultimately "right".

 

[Elsie N]

While everyone here is coming at Pro Res from from a big concept angle, I would like to offer a "local" perspective. In the event I shoot something for local TV, 2k Pro Res will suffice. Otherwise I just don't think I need it... but could decide otherwise in favor of 4 k later.