Profile: SC 4.1 250ISO

[Jay A. Kelley]

Nothing at all!

Except:

I think that a lot of people get wrong in a way of dealing with RED1 especially at the (rich) "provinces" of Europe, USA, or,...

like I'm living (Vienna, Austria, EU,...) where the producers don't want to put their money renting something (digital) camera

that have 250 ISO (proposed in "Profile: SC 4.1 250ISO" rating sensitivity because they work for years with HD video or 16mm film without (any?) of that problems.

For example an Austrian film at Cannes 2009 is shot with 16mm film (/schade/),

an Austrian film production is almost always an independent and struggle with money,...

so my dear friend Jay A. Kelley,

people like "M.G" is a somehow VERY serious "danger" or a bit "dumper" of the RED1 system that I would like to work/rent/borrow or whatever right now or in the future..

Hope you would understand the facts...

Sanjin

Sanjin,

If the core of RED is one of "choices" then why would you be disrespectful to anyone's personal choices of how they use the camera? Furthermore, why would you be unkind to a person who is quite simply trying to help others?

I thought RED was founded on the idea that there is more than one way to do something, and so the camera aims to be flexible for those that wish to do it their own way.

Just cause you shoot pretty footage with interesting lenses, does not mean others cannot do good work in different ways.

As for the ISO rating.. It is what it is.. New cameras are coming out.. I suggest we wait.

Jay

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Jay A. Kelley or Jay,

you know very well how it is:

If my car is rated 250 as MG wanted to spread a story in his profile,

i'll get in troubles with simple guys to sell my system that claims 320 IS0 sensitivity.

imagine all those world's provinces like a...

It is a really a political ISSUE and should be battled with a political language...

Also "just to mentioned" that MG once provided HERE "a bit sexy footage" that was a really a joke

in way of all what was done in Spanish or wider European movie tradition of similar for yeras before and very artistically strong (Salvador Dali, Luis Buñuel,... or Pedro Almodovar...)

but that a just was my dream and horror is coming...!!!

He is should be definitely OFF or at the end HE can continue to make some commercials for a money but...

behind a RED1+++ camera project!!!

and to leave a concept (an idea) of the story in "his movies" to the professionals?

could help too!!!

because you never know!!!

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Uhhhh... Sanjin, the camera IS rated at 320. There is nothing anyone can do to change that. Mac was simply MANIPULATING the ASA (Gain) setting to that exposure would look more correct and helpful within RED's meters.

He did not "rate" the camera, he simply said that setting it to 250 allows for more protected highlites and the ability to pull from shadows.

To me it makes sense, the last think I need in a bright scene is "faster" film.

You know.. Right now "you" look like the "bad guy" in this situation.

MAC has come in here offering something to help, and it would seem that all you are doing is putting him down, and bitching.

One thing is for sure.. You are NOT using political language.

You should use kinder words Sanjin, or people will simply ignore you, and I'd hate to see that happen.



Jay

 

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

He did not "rate" the camera, he simply said that setting it to 250 allows for more protected highlites and the ability to pull from shadows.Jay

Jay, please understand i´m setting the ISO setting down to 250ISO in order to prevent preview clipping in the video outputs, BUT YOU MUST USE THE PROFILE CURVE in combination or you´ll totally ruin the footage. 250ISO by itself won´t protect any highligts. I hope this is understood well.
THanks
Mac

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Uhhhh... Sanjin, the camera IS rated at 320. There is nothing anyone can do to change that. Mac was simply MANIPULATING the ASA (Gain) setting to that exposure would look more correct and helpful within RED's meters.

He did not "rate" the camera, he simply said that setting it to 250 allows for more protected highlites and the ability to pull from shadows.

To me it makes sense, the last think I need in a bright scene is "faster" film.

You know.. Right now "you" look like the "bad guy" in this situation.

MAC has come in here offering something to help, and it would seem that all you are doing is putting him down, and bitching.

One thing is for sure.. You are NOT using political language.

You should use kinder words Sanjin, or people will simply ignore you, and I'd hate to see that happen.



Jay

Jay,

not so sure that RED team officials...

get in serious in those details...

but who knows maybe it would gain Cannes Palm'd Or or something in that way...

Jay, I didn't make any serious commentary about it and also about a silence...

Also Jay, nothing is BENIGN, so when ISO of very important camera is on away...

Jay, also you didn't make any comentary around that FAKE "250 ISO ideology" that is more

important to me than even RED1 real ISO rating (just because is a RAW and I cannot help in a way ...:beer

Hope this helps too...

OR SIMPLY I DO NOT WAT THAT SOMEBODY RUNNING AROUND

WITH PICTURES OF PRETTY GIRLS AND CLAIMS THAT WERE ALL DONE AT 250 ISO

THAT'S NOT A TRUE AND REALLY MAKES ME WITH R1 BELOW 16MM FILM COMPETITION...

 

[Joe G.]

Sanjin:
"people like "M.G" is a somehow VERY serious "danger" or a bit "dumper" of the RED1 system that I would like to work/rent/borrow or whatever right now or in the future..

Hope you would understand the facts...

nothing personal..."

So, the "facts" are the Macgregor's little profile, which you repeatedly label a "virus" is going to ruin the Red reputation around the world. Some "fact."

Your distraction has derailed the conversation. I've asked some specific particular questions about the profile and its usage, but you keep ranting and raving about irrelevant alleged perceptions of hypothetical third parties.

I'm going to have to side with the mob and wish you just go away.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Leave the marketing to the experts at RED and let's just try and spread accurate and helpful information, as best we can. Consumers attempting to play politics to promote a piece of technology will only backfire in the end because it will give the impression, whether falsely or not, of a cover-up. Ultimately the camera has to stand on its own merits based on an honest and fair assessment. If MacGregor's advice leads to someone getting better results out of their RED, that can only help RED in the long term.

Though personally, I found the whole approach a bit confusing myself, using a lower rating to protect highlights seems contradictory at first glance. I am wary of any approach which seems too clever by half. But, hey, if it works...

The camera settings are just metadata, but that metadata affects monitor output on the set, and how dailies might be processed, so it seems like you'd want to pick settings that work for those two purposes -- on-set display and dailies for editorial -- and figure out some personal method for yourself for exposing properly in a way that works for post. Now if you're shooting for yourself and editing the footage yourself, then you can do whatever you want to the camera settings that works for you.

 

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

Mac: Could you explain a little more about this image, and how it was taken:


Was there a bounce card to fill in on her face? How did the profile change the exposure exactly? Could you have done the same thing without the profile, or would the face appear too dark on the monitor? What significance does this profile have in shooting these types of images?

Nope, there was no bounce. If you are stricktly taking care of the RAW meter, curves won´t affect your exposure.
BUt if you use false color to expose or have a client complaining about blown out highlights this is the case where curves will help your work.
That picture was an example of high contrast scene where you want to preserver mid tones and shadows (face) while not having a completely blown out sky.
Exposing the same scene with the false color at 320ISO would have given a totally overexposed sky. Exposing with the SC4.1 profile, allthough loosing one stop of DR in the shadows, helped to get detail in the sky. And also very important, it allowed me to correctly see what i was capturing (no hidden 1/3 of a stop in the highlights or an image too dark to preserve highlights).

 

[Luca Immesi]

Jay,

not so sure that RED team officials...

get in serious in those details...

but who knows maybe it would gain Cannes Palm'd Or or something in that way...

Jay, I didn't make any serious commentary about it and also about a silence...

Also Jay, nothing is BENIGN, so when ISO of very important camera is on away...

Jay, also you didn't make any comentary around that FAKE "250 ISO ideology" that is more

important to me than even RED1 real ISO rating (just because is a RAW and I cannot help in a way ...:beer

Hope this helps too...

There's no "fake 250 ideology". The camera has the possibility to load different profiles, it is a feature made by Red. Why can't we use this possibility? Why can't we explore more ways if we want?

 

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

Though personally, I found the whole approach a bit confusing myself, using a lower rating to protect highlights seems contradictory at first glance. I am wary of any approach which seems too clever by half. But, hey, if it works...

The camera settings are just metadata, but that metadata affects monitor output on the set, and how dailies might be processed, so it seems like you'd want to pick settings that work for those two purposes -- on-set display and dailies for editorial -- ... .

Hi David,
The lower rating avoids the limitation in the video output. BUT it´s the curve that you load before what will give you a mid gray equivalent to a R1 640ISO. But the benefit of using a curve is that the highlights do not look blown out.

Dailies and editorial were the key part for developing the curve. Now, as DP, you don´t have to excuse yourself saying, "don´t worry, you have 1 and a half stops of hidden DR in the highlights that you may recover when grading the raw file". Now what you see is what you get.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

To repeat again the question after all:

What would the guys that participated in

our favorite footage NAB 2009

say about a "Profile: SC 4.1 250ISO"...???

Just curious...

 

[Etienne Caron]

MacGregor,

I fully understand why the look was made for and i'm following your post since you start testing the R1. Its really informative all the time.

I'm wandering, what is your next look, using ASA500, will have specific ?

thanks

 

[JustinGD]

Can somebody define "real world ISO" for me?

I have been asked a few times "if Red is rated at 320, why do you have to set your light meter to 160 for an accurate reading?"

When I'm working on my own projects, I don't care, but when I'm trying to rent the camera to a producer or DP, what do I tell them about this inconsistency with the light meter?

 

[Dominic Cochran]

To repeat again the question after all:

What would the guys that participated in

our favorite footage NAB 2009

say about a "Profile: SC 4.1 250ISO"...???

Just curious...

If you seriously think every DP who shot this footage simply dialed in 320 on the camera and 320 on their lightmeter and rolled with it, then I think you are way beyond being reasoned with on this subject.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

If you seriously think every DP who shot this footage simply dialed in 320 on the camera and 320 on their lightmeter and rolled with it, then I think you are way beyond being reasoned with on this subject.

I never said that and if you have seen some of my "Quick & Dirty" lens tests here at the forum I was also dealing with 250 ISO but in RA or RC and not in R1 camera.

But obviously is that they didn't use "Profile: SC 4.1 250ISO".

 

[Philip Powell]

Exploration

Exploration

I really appreciate open ongoing discussions like this, I learn a lot through them.

Sajin, it's clear you think this profile is less than wise. You've stated your opininon several times, and that's fine. But at this point, your posts are just inflammatory.

I look forward to weighing the pros and cons of this profile in greater detail.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Wow, not sure how I missed this thread. Must have been planning some event in Vegas.

Mac, interesting results and something I will try for sure to see what I can get from it. Thanks for sharing this with us.

Sanjin, I'm a pretty objective guy, but I have to admit - I think you've gone too far in this thread. Not so much in offering a counterpoint, as that is perfectly fine. If you disagree with Mac's findings, then you simply state a counterpoint backed with examples of why you feel his findings are inaccurate. I don't think anyone would fault you for this, in fact it would add to the discussion and make people consider all the points, come to their own conclusions. But instead, I perceive a bitter attack on the findings and you are using RED's 320ASA rating as a basis to attack him. Well, I can assure you that not all of the footage that you saw in the RED Reel was 320ASA. DP's (and really good ones) have elected to at times rate the camera differently. It's not disrespectful to RED at all. RED gives you a baseline, a starting point. They have said where they think the sweet spots are. But they know that people will use this camera in a variety of ways, and I'm sure they are okay with this. That's one of the ways they can get feedback on how the sensor is handling a variety of situations.

I love reading threads like the one that Mac has started here because it explores technique. He's not saying his way is the only way. I enjoy your threads when you post facts about lenses, or even when you get into some subjective analysis about lenses. But truth be told, some of your posts come off the wrong way. Perhaps at times it's the language barrier. But other times, I'm left scratching my head.

This forum offers amazing opportunity to explore technique, but the good intent sometimes gets derailed because we become too clever for our own good. Think about how good this thread would be if Mac had posted his findings, you posted a thoughtful counterpoint, and then people followed up with questions. Instead, there has been a major hijacking that has taken place and some people will be forced to ignore your posts, which is unfortunate because they'll probably miss some of the good information you put up here sometimes.

I will tell you that in my discussions with industry professionals about this site, this is an example of what has led them to either avoid the site or sit on the sidelines and just read certain threads. And I think it's a shame because there is some great info here, and some really talented people using this camera. Jarred has created a mecca for discussing a variety of topics. If we could just learn to use better discretion at times, it would help avoid the derailment of so many good threads.

And now that I have contributed to derailing this thread, I will now try to get it back on track.

Mac, do you have some tungsten interiors (R3Ds or stills) that you could share that you have used this look on?

Thanks again for your tests!

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

Mac, do you have some tungsten interiors (R3Ds or stills) that you could share that you have used this look on?

It is my understanding that this profile is best used in high contrast situations where you want to see / monitor all that you are recording. So it is better suited for daylight scenes with high con.

However, I have not found it do be objectionable in tungsten scenes. Here is a still from a project I'm currently working on that was shot tungsten and the profile was on. (Switching look profiles is not very friendly on the Red, as I have found the profiles to not always load correctly. So I just keep it on there if I'm shooting daylight and tungsten setups in the same day. If it is just one or the other, then I'll set the profile accordingly.)

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Cool, thanks for that info Ryan. I'm looking forward to testing this.

 

[Luca Immesi]

The profile is very interesting, especially after I've discovered during a shooting some expert guys did a similar thing setting values in the camera instead loading the profile.
The values were quite similar although the ones of Mcgregor are more complete.
I've tried to load a clip in apple color, it keeps all the values of the profile except the curve but the look is very similar to the one in redalert. I think in some way apple color maintains the curve values although they are not accessible as in redalert. Is it correct?