Probably selling our dragons for Gemini’s... should we?

[william howell]

It’s been on my mind for awhile, but for various reasons such as long term functionality and RED support we are probably jumping off of the DSMC1 platform and have decided to procure a couple of Gemini’s.

1. I LOVE our epic-m dragon... I love everything about the camera.. it is a rock solid performer, and hasn’t let me down in any possible way. We’d keep the cameras forever except that Red doesn’t support them anymore... literally..

2. Is the jump from 6k to 5k painful? I generally shoot in 6k 48fps so I can extract stills for various print outlets.

3. I LOVE our Dragon... does anyone out there love their Gemini as much as they did/do their DSMC1 camera?

4. Once we jump to DSMC2 we’re assuming (due to the unification of the bodies) RED will support DSMC2 cameras for many years to come. Are we mistaken in this assumption?

5. I reeeeeeaaallly love the dragon... I remember the very first still red posted taken with the dragon sensor of that incredible close up of the dragon looking lizard... from that moment, I knew that I needed to film on a dragon someday. I haven’t had that “I need to film with that” with any other red sensor. Are we making a mistake by leaving the dragons behind for the Gemini’s?

6. If we chicken out and keep the DSMC1 cameras, is there a way to procure spare parts for them if we need to? Aftermarket boards, etc.. We’ve already had to replace the battery in our scarlet, and I’m quite sure we could replace any of the other internal components with no problem as long as we can procure the part.

Heck... I’d be willing to be the DSMC1 repair guy if red would give me access to their parts... that way we could keep the dragons and remain happy with our battle tested gear.

In any case... I worry a lot and am probably just overthinking this.. I need fellow reduser counseling.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Dsmc3 is probably around the courner when that comes dsmc2 will likly be faced out as fast as dsmc1.

If you like dragon and are hapy with them why not stay with them? dsmc2 prices are declining if one breaks you can probably get a new / spare part one quite quickly for a low cost.

DSMC2 comes with a some benefits ofcourse but not much stuff you could not do without. Luts and prores in camera are really not must have things. The slightly higher bandwidh makes differense but not much. The new sensors and cleaner inages are the main thing but if you shoot in controlled light dragon is also extreamly good.

And staying wirh the same bodies let you keep all the surroundibg stuff. New body means lot of other bits need to be replaced.

My dragon got stolen right before dcmc2 came out so yes good timing for an update. If that did not happen I would probably been a happy dragon owner still. Rent them as b cam alot.

 

[william howell]

Thanks Björn. We actually shoot in low light environments on a regular basis, and I guess I should have mentioned that in the original post. I have been intrigued by the Gemini since it’s release, and the helium sounds amazing however we don’t need 8k. 6k is amazing, and my big worry is that we’ll shoot 5k and end up regretting the switch. We have been discussing adding anamorphic to our workflow and the 3000 vertical pixels of the Gemini sounds intriguing.

How different is Gemini or Helium from Dragon? We may keep one Dragon and procure one DSMC2 camera.

 

[William Long]

Test a Gemini over a weekend and see if it suits your needs? Its low light capability is really impressive, to such an extent (for documentary at least) that it opens up a whole new realm of possibilities.

 

[Hugh Scully]

I’m keeping my Dragon. Like you, I love the images. For sure your low-light requirement is considerable. I’m interested in your discussion about sourcing parts and how to repair Dragons going forward. Let me know if you open up a shop!

When necessary, I’ll buy a new RED outright. I can’t keep up despite the incentives to upgrade.

 

[Nick Gardner]

Sold my dragon and got a Gemini. Don't miss a thing. It's not an earth shattering improvement, except for the low light possibilities. That's pretty great. I just wrapped a shoot with that chinese probe lens, it's an f14. shooting 120fps, the extra 2 stops came in really handy. I seldom find instances where I need to be at 3200 iso, but macro, slo mo, and that kind of shit it is really useful.

The gemini is just cleaner looking. And the dsmc2 body is a little more user friendly once you unfuck the stupid pogo monitor ports.

Nick

 

[Nick Morrison]

Thanks Björn. We actually shoot in low light environments on a regular basis, and I guess I should have mentioned that in the original post. I have been intrigued by the Gemini since it’s release, and the helium sounds amazing however we don’t need 8k. 6k is amazing, and my big worry is that we’ll shoot 5k and end up regretting the switch. We have been discussing adding anamorphic to our workflow and the 3000 vertical pixels of the Gemini sounds intriguing.

How different is Gemini or Helium from Dragon? We may keep one Dragon and procure one DSMC2 camera.

We love shooting on Dragon 6K too, so I get it. But we've also been shooting Gemini 5K, so here are some direct comparisons:

1) 5K Gemini is as sharp as 6K Dragon. Can't explain it, it just is. In fact, we find Gemini easier to reframe than Dragon. Keep in mind the sensor's are the same width. It's just Gemini has larger pixels (and hence less K's).

2) Gemini's lowlight and DR is for real.

3) Gemini is everything I like about Dragon, just a bit better.

That said, pound for pound, a used 6K Dragon is hard to beat (esp for the price these days).

When we mix Gemini and Dragon on controlled studio environment we can't tell the difference (ie at 400 ISO).

 

[Zack Birlew]

So, just making sure, are the DSMC1 Dragons no longer officially supported?

 

[william howell]

You know... at first I assumed their drop of DSMC1 form factor meant that any/all DSMC1 cameras and accessories were no longer supported. Your question made me hit Google, and it seems that even though DSMC1 is officially 86’d off of their repair list, there seem to be some statements that they will still service DSMC1 dragons for the time being. So... I assume they have a limited number of internal parts/circuit boards/etc sitting in a few boxes on a shelf somewhere reserved for the Epic Dragons. However, from what I can tell all other DSMC1 camera/module/side handle support has been set out to pasture.

So... the gamble for us Dragon owners is do we keep shooting till a logic board fails and hope that there are enough parts in that repair box to fix it, or do we upgrade to dsmc2 in order to future proof our cameras to be repairable for the foreseeable future.

I honestly shoot with my camera every day and we’re gearing up for a two year in-depth project. If it goes down, I’ll be a sitting duck.. and since our organization recently made the decision not to purchase off of this forum anymore, the used market is limited for us.

After some truly deep soul searching, I’m more comfortable now with letting the dragons go... however.. I still love my camera.. I can’t say that about any other camera I’ve ever shot with... three decades of shooting... I rode the film to digital stills camera ride... the beta/vhs/other analog tape formats/dv/hdv/dvd/digital video/digital cinema camera ride... There were a couple of Canon dslr’s I was fond of along the way, and I really liked our Sony fs700.. but.. our super used Red Dragons have been the first cameras that I truly enjoyed every single moment filming with. The camera just gets out of the way, and lets you tell the story in front of you. For that, I am thankful to have had an opportunity to have worked with such an amazing tool.

I have full confidence that the Gemini’s will serve us as well as the Dragons have, it’s just hard letting go of your first love.

So, just making sure, are the DSMC1 Dragons no longer officially supported?

 

[william howell]

Hey Nick,

That lens looks awesome. I’ve been wanting to shoot with it too. What’s the story on the pogo mounting ports?

Sold my dragon and got a Gemini. Don't miss a thing. It's not an earth shattering improvement, except for the low light possibilities. That's pretty great. I just wrapped a shoot with that chinese probe lens, it's an f14. shooting 120fps, the extra 2 stops came in really handy. I seldom find instances where I need to be at 3200 iso, but macro, slo mo, and that kind of shit it is really useful.

The gemini is just cleaner looking. And the dsmc2 body is a little more user friendly once you unfuck the stupid pogo monitor ports.

Nick

 

[Nick Gardner]

Well, sorry Red engineers, but whoever decided that it was a good idea to have two dumb places and two dumb places only, that you can install your on board monitor should get out on set more. I mean sure, I bet it was a great idea when you were high.

Fortunately that is a pretty easy fix. The wooden camera top plate replaces both of the pogo ports with lemos for your monitor and EVF. Having two is great. The base expander puts all the cables in the right place finally. It's really nice to not fight with cables to plug in time code or bncs anymore.

Maybe the hardest pill to swallow with the upgrade is forking over the money for new media if you don't already have mini mags, but they download so fast, it's worth it.

Overall, you'll be very happy with DSMC2.

The LAOWA WOOKIE whatever the fuck lens is pretty cool. It's a little soft wide open, and crazy warm color temp wise, but it lets you do some really cool stuff. And come to think of it, all of the probe lenses I've used were kind of soft wide open and most of them cost about 10 times what the chinese one does.

Nick

 

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

Well, sorry Red engineers, but whoever decided that it was a good idea to have two dumb places and two dumb places only, that you can install your on board monitor should get out on set more. I mean sure, I bet it was a great idea when you were high.

Fortunately that is a pretty easy fix. The wooden camera top plate replaces both of the pogo ports with lemos for your monitor and EVF. Having two is great. The base expander puts all the cables in the right place finally. It's really nice to not fight with cables to plug in time code or bncs anymore.

Maybe the hardest pill to swallow with the upgrade is forking over the money for new media if you don't already have mini mags, but they download so fast, it's worth it.

Overall, you'll be very happy with DSMC2.

The LAOWA WOOKIE whatever the fuck lens is pretty cool. It's a little soft wide open, and crazy warm color temp wise, but it lets you do some really cool stuff. And come to think of it, all of the probe lenses I've used were kind of soft wide open and most of them cost about 10 times what the chinese one does.

Nick

Just have the WC Pogo to LEMO cables i various lenghts and Bob is your uncle! I have the LAOWA probe. Its pretty cool.