Pro-Tools and FCP

[King Cheung]

Dear All,

I have just done a project by using FCP and STP. To be honest, the roundtripping of FCP and STP is just too good to be true. When you work on the same computer, it works ok, except sometimes messing up the wave graphic. However, when we move to project to another computer, which is very common for any kind of collaboration, the files just have difficult time to reconnect and/or reconform. That's the first point.

The other point is that: In most of the sound mix stuido, they use ProTools. For our low budget films, we likely do the pre-mix and effects by ourselves and take all the tracks to well-facilitated stuido for final mixing or just a listening session. In this case, isn't it easier and nicer if we are also using ProTools for our pre-mix?

Then the questions are:

1./ I wonder if FCP and ProTools have something similar to roundtripping function between FCP and STP. I know FCP and ProTools are actually from two rivial companies, and I just wonder if there is some not-too-difficult workarounds to reconform the files, or any third parties software for reconforming. For our productions, changing things during pre-mix is quite often, so reconforming is actually important to us.

2./ As we mainly just use ProTools for simple editing, effects and mostly mixing, what kind of ProTools package will be suitable to us? Actually, what we need the ProTools to hook up is just a pair of Adam AX monitors, so we don't need too much I/O. Also, we already have an AJA KONA to connect the monitors. I wonder if we can just buy the software itself.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

King, STP is a decent piece of software for it's intent, which is the video editor who also want to do sound editing/design and then roundtrip back to FCP. It's even probably okay for people who focus only on sound, but Pro Tools has advantages, some of them you mentioned.

To roundtrip between FCP and Pro Tools happens one of two ways. You export an OMF from FCP. That gets imported into Pro Tools (if on Pro Tools LE, you'll need A/V Option). You would export a Mix Pic from FCP with TC burn for Ref at whatever size and codec is appropriate for your system. Do your work in Pro Tools, export a final mix, stems, etc. and import back into FCP. Sure, not as quick as perhaps STP but you have many more advantages in Pro Tools in my opinion, top one being compatibility with other studios.

The other option is to export with this http://automaticduck.com/products/pefcp/

The advantage of this method is that it will support the following:

Audio keyframes become gain automation in OMF
Clip-based audio levels
Audio pan

So it allows you to do some rough leveling in FCP.

In terms of interfaces, how about something like this http://www.avid.com/US/products/Mbox-2-Mini

You do need Pro Tools hardware to run the software.

Hope this helps.

 

[King Cheung]

Thanks a lot for your reply, Steve.

One quick question: does the M-box package come with full version of ProTools? Is there any limitation between ProTools LE and 8? Can I upgrade from LE to 8, but still stay with Mbox?

Thanks in advance.

King, STP is a decent piece of software for it's intent, which is the video editor who also want to do sound editing/design and then roundtrip back to FCP. It's even probably okay for people who focus only on sound, but Pro Tools has advantages, some of them you mentioned.

To roundtrip between FCP and Pro Tools happens one of two ways. You export an OMF from FCP. That gets imported into Pro Tools (if on Pro Tools LE, you'll need A/V Option). You would export a Mix Pic from FCP with TC burn for Ref at whatever size and codec is appropriate for your system. Do your work in Pro Tools, export a final mix, stems, etc. and import back into FCP. Sure, not as quick as perhaps STP but you have many more advantages in Pro Tools in my opinion, top one being compatibility with other studios.

The other option is to export with this http://automaticduck.com/products/pefcp/

The advantage of this method is that it will support the following:

Audio keyframes become gain automation in OMF
Clip-based audio levels
Audio pan

So it allows you to do some rough leveling in FCP.

In terms of interfaces, how about something like this http://www.avid.com/US/products/Mbox-2-Mini

You do need Pro Tools hardware to run the software.

Hope this helps.

 

[Marc Wielage]

If you're using Pro Tools LE, you'll also need to add the Production Toolkit in order to gain access to OMFs, timecode and other features:

http://www.avid.com/US/products/Complete-Production-Toolkit/features

Production Toolkit (formerly DV Toolkit) will not work with M-powered interfaces; you have to use the higher-end PTLE interfaces (002, 003, MBox Pro, etc.). Many have criticized Digi for this in the past, and I personally think they should just give up and throw in the Toolkit for free. There's a lot of arguments about this on the Digi User Conference.

Ideally, the way to go is to do the edit and mix with Pro Tools HD, but that's a gigantic leap in terms of expense. One compromise would be to do a rough edit and mix as much as you can on a smaller PTLE system, then hire a mixing stage and an experienced mixer to do the final mix on a full-blown HD system.

 

[Anson Fogel]

Marc,

I believe the Production Toolkit on LE will work with the Mbox 2 Pro. A significant development.

 

[Jon Lillie]

The automatic duck export tool is awesome. On the note of the toolkit, you actually have 2 options.

1) the complete production toolkit already mentioned
2) the dv toolkit

As far as hardware goes you need to have one of the avid/digidesign boxes. ie Mbox 2 mini, Mbox 2, Mbox 2 Pro, 002, 003.

All of this changes if you go with ProTools HD, as that software is not gimped, and requires a PCIe card in the computer to work.

 

[Bruce Allen]

For true conform (eg if your edit changes and you want to update your Pro Tools project).

Check out Virtual Katy.

AFAIK it's the high-end standard. BTW anyone else use anything cheaper with success?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Tom Visser]

The CPTK and DVTK2 will run on any of the MBOX 2 models, including the Micro (headphone output only, no inputs) and of course the 002 and 003 as mentioned. Of the MBOXes, only the Pro will support sampling rates higher than 48KHz (88.2 or 96). I think you can purchase just the OMF and timecode features separately, but pricing probably makes more sense to purchase the kits. I bought the CPTK for a very reasonable price used. That is the upside to the iLok and good copy protection of PT in general, despite the naysayers regarding "dongle" and hardware limitations... there is still a healthy used market for software and plugins, not as many people pirating things from Digi compared to Steinberg / Apple.

STP is a great solution if you are doing it all in-house and don't require to send your sound to other post audio people, but I have heard quite a few complaints about it choking on medium and large sized projects. If it is eventually going to end up on ProTools, I wouldn't even bother bringing it into STP.

Picture lock... please make sure you have it and respect it once it is made, before starting on sound.

The new Avid HD Omni 8 channel HD interface has a new "mini" link port... rumors are flying around about a new DSP'less interface for a "Native" HD option, but at this point, they are just that, rumors. Avid needs to keep up with the times and make a lower cost HD or uncrippled LE soon, in order to keep market share and hopefully some day actually make a profit.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

If you're using Pro Tools LE, you'll also need to add the Production Toolkit in order to gain access to OMFs, timecode and other features:

http://www.avid.com/US/products/Complete-Production-Toolkit/features

Production Toolkit (formerly DV Toolkit) will not work with M-powered interfaces; you have to use the higher-end PTLE interfaces (002, 003, MBox Pro, etc.). Many have criticized Digi for this in the past, and I personally think they should just give up and throw in the Toolkit for free. There's a lot of arguments about this on the Digi User Conference.

Ideally, the way to go is to do the edit and mix with Pro Tools HD, but that's a gigantic leap in terms of expense. One compromise would be to do a rough edit and mix as much as you can on a smaller PTLE system, then hire a mixing stage and an experienced mixer to do the final mix on a full-blown HD system.

yes, don't know where I was getting A/V option. I have Pro Tools 8 with DV Toolkit 2. there are still quite a few advantages to going with Pro Tools HD, too numerous to list. I agree that the best plan is to take it as far as you can with LE and then move it to a higher end system at the end, unless you are getting desired results on your system.

 

[King Cheung]

yes, don't know where I was getting A/V option. I have Pro Tools 8 with DV Toolkit 2. there are still quite a few advantages to going with Pro Tools HD, too numerous to list. I agree that the best plan is to take it as far as you can with LE and then move it to a higher end system at the end, unless you are getting desired results on your system.

thanks for your information, Steve. Do you have any quick answer for me about the major advantage of Pro Tool HD, please?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Robert Frank]

Pro Tools 9 is out now and no longer requires AVID (Digidesign) I/O hardware because it uses iLok copy protection. It also includes some features that previously were ($$$) add-ons.

Check the AVID website for software differences between PT9 and PT9HD.

http://www.avid.com/us/products/family/Pro-Tools/compare

I plan on upgrading to PT9 and using my Metric-Halo I/O's. Goodbye cheap crappy MBox.

 

[jaadgy akanni]

Pro Tools 9 is out now and no longer requires AVID (Digidesign) I/O hardware because it uses iLok copy protection. It also includes some features that previously were ($$$) add-ons.

Check the AVID website for software differences between PT9 and PT9HD.

http://www.avid.com/us/products/family/Pro-Tools/compare

I plan on upgrading to PT9 and using my Metric-Halo I/O's. Goodbye cheap crappy MBox.

Correct. Avid finally came to their senses and made Pro Tools (both Native and HD) compatible with practically every audio interface out there. These days I'm traveling around with Pro Tools 9 on my Macbook Pro i7 and a portable Focusrite 24 DSP interface, and a pair Mics in case I wanna record anything. So friggin' convenient.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Pro Tools 9 is pretty cool. Should open up a lot of nice possibilities.

 

[David W. Jones]

+1.... Add CPTK to Pro Tools 9 and you have a very nice audio post solution.
Just move the iLock to which ever computer you need to use.

 

[Jon Lillie]

Pro Tools 9 is pretty cool. Should open up a lot of nice possibilities.

like the one to work anywhere... currently doing dialogue editing on a couple of short films with PT9, and using dropbox I am able to sync the sessions across my mac pro and macbook pro. very convient.

 

[King Cheung]

like the one to work anywhere... currently doing dialogue editing on a couple of short films with PT9, and using dropbox I am able to sync the sessions across my mac pro and macbook pro. very convient.

Hi, Jon, are you using FCP with PT9 together?
Thanks.

 

[Jon Lillie]

Hi, Jon, are you using FCP with PT9 together?
Thanks.

you could say yes. I have an editor that is working in FCP7, (I'm in PT9) and she outputs an OMF and a .mov (scaled down from the native 4k she is working in). Also she puts an edl for that cut in a shared dropbox folder. That then syncs to my laptop (macBook Pro), and my MacPro. I Then open a new session and import the OMF, and .mov. Then I save the session into the shard dropbox folder and voila, it all syncs. only thing I have to do is reset my IO when I open it on the other machine. (a pain, but I deal) I also have a local session backed up on my macPro just in case something happens. This I usually sync back daily depending on how much work I'm able to do.

when she "unlocks" the picture as happens. I get a new .mov, .omf, EDL, and a change log. I then go through the painful process of conforming (i'm too poor to buy the software).

So far I have done 2 short films in this manner, and both have worked flawlessly.

FYI I am mainly doing dialogue editing, and some basic sound design work. No scoring, or composing.

 

[Robin Moran]

you could say yes. I have an editor that is working in FCP7, (I'm in PT9) and she outputs an OMF and a .mov (scaled down from the native 4k she is working in). Also she puts an edl for that cut in a shared dropbox folder. That then syncs to my laptop (macBook Pro), and my MacPro. I Then open a new session and import the OMF, and .mov. Then I save the session into the shard dropbox folder and voila, it all syncs. only thing I have to do is reset my IO when I open it on the other machine. (a pain, but I deal) I also have a local session backed up on my macPro just in case something happens. This I usually sync back daily depending on how much work I'm able to do.

when she "unlocks" the picture as happens. I get a new .mov, .omf, EDL, and a change log. I then go through the painful process of conforming (i'm too poor to buy the software).

So far I have done 2 short films in this manner, and both have worked flawlessly.

FYI I am mainly doing dialogue editing, and some basic sound design work. No scoring, or composing.

Is this possible using PT9 only or do you have to have the CPTK?

 

[Jon Lillie]

Is this possible using PT9 only or do you have to have the CPTK?

I currently only do this with the basic PT9 install. That being said I am getting CPTK 2 for christmas, as I have found a need to do 5.1 in PT instead of bounce it out to Logic Pro for 5.1. I have a dvtoolkit license left over from PT 8 that allows me to upgrade to CPTK for only 300 bucks.

fyi, just wrapped on both shorts (done for the semester), and PT 9 performed flawlessly.

 

[John Neff]

Addressing some of the issues in the earlier part of this thread, ProTools is by far the 'Industry Standard' for film mixing and scoring, and any project done in it will be practically instantly compatible with any commercial or professional mixing studio or stage.
But you filmmakers on small projects, remember that the M-Box and smaller hardware solutions do not allow for surround sound, as they do not have enough outputs.
So, you really need to get into an 003 or better rig with 8 outputs, so you can either bring out stems or a full 6-channel surround mix with stereo downmix.
And, HD offers much more professional features, but you can get acceptable results on an LE rig with the proper toolkit add-ons.