PRO IO

[Mike Kushner]

16 x 9, Full Frame Clean Feed

16 x 9, Full Frame Clean Feed

If you mean a properly scaled 1920 x 1080 clean feed with graded REC709 colors so you can feed an Atomos or Sound Devices recorder etc - yes that's there now, from both the Brain and the PRO I/O.[/Q

Does "properly scaled" mean that the image will be full frame on a 16 x 9 monitor with no letterbox? Will there be a 5K, 16 x 9 resolution that outputs a true clean feed? That is desperately needed according to all the posts about that issue.

 

[Stuart English]

That does not solve the problem of 1/8" audio inputs on a $40,000 camera. I can kind of understand this on a $4000 prosumer camera -- not a camera like the Epic. I'm sorry, guys, this is really a bizarre shortcoming on an otherwise commendable camera. I continue to be perplexed at Red's indifference to audio with your products.

Everybody kind of got used to the TA3 (mini-XLR) connectors on the Red One, and I kind of accept that you have to go with this from a space/design point of view. But a 50 cent mini plug? Come on. You guys are better than this.

I continue to be puzzled by this urban myth that we don't care about audio quality.

4 discreet audio channels - check

24-bit 48KHz sampling - check

Available +48V Phantom power - check

Wide dynamic range - check

Soft limiter - check

Spot on Audio / video Sync - check

Stereo headphone jack - check

Available full size XLRs - check

Available Line in at 0dBu or 0VU reference

Available dual channel line out - check

Available LEMO Timcode In and Out - check

Timecode cross Jam - check

Available AES / EBU digital audio inputs - check

Embedded audio in HD-SDI and HDMI - check

Wireless audio ingest in development - check




It isn't possible to put XLR's on the brain. OK I get that point - however it is still full spec audio quality and you do have the option of the PRO I/O modules, which if you add that to the camera is still smaller than competing professional cameras.

 

[Mike Kushner]

I can't get a good audio signal into the brain without a special mixer that attenuates a very non-standardized level. Industry standard mic level and industry standard line level just don't make a saturated, robust audio level...and the headphone output is just plain anemic. Ten years ago i bought a DVcam for a couple of grand and right out of the box the audio was clean, easy and had standardized levels. In this day and age a brain that is a real pain to get audio to is no fun at all. ...and the handling noise from the little mini connectors is quite discouraging. So, yes...there are some audio issues to be addressed. it's not an urban myth.

 

[Adrian T.]

It isn't possible to put XLR's on the brain. OK I get that point - however it is still full spec audio quality and you do have the option of the PRO I/O modules, which if you add that to the camera is still smaller than competing professional cameras.

It would still be awesome if you allowed line level audio on the brain inputs. Audio quality is decreased by using external attenuators, and buying/renting/using the Pro I/O just to have two line level inputs is not always an option.

(even my consumer DVX100 nine years ago had balanced line inputs)

 

[Mike Kushner]

If you mean a properly scaled 1920 x 1080 clean feed with graded REC709 colors so you can feed an Atomos or Sound Devices recorder etc - yes that's there now, from both the Brain and the PRO I/O.

My Epic's output generates a letter box and pillar box on the 4K HD, 16 x 9 setting when viewing on the monitor. (black bars around the sides and top and bottom of frame) Is that "properly scaled"? Or was there a change in a firmware update that i missed? Thank you to any of the Red engineers that can shed light on this.

 

[Shane Kelly]

My Epic's output generates a letter box and pillar box on the 4K HD, 16 x 9 setting when viewing on the monitor. (black bars around the sides and top and bottom of frame) Is that "properly scaled"? Or was there a change in a firmware update that i missed? Thank you to any of the Red engineers that can shed light on this.

I believe it's coming in about 2 weeks in the new software build.

 

[Adam Howden]

Is there a way to record just the audio stream from 3 & 4 but not have two blank audio channels appear in the 1 & 2 section of the R3D?

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Is there a way to record just the audio stream from 3 & 4 but not have two blank audio channels appear in the 1 & 2 section of the R3D?

+1 Remapping 3&4 to 1&2 through the menu would be sweet.

 

[Mike Halper]

+1 Remapping 3&4 to 1&2 through the menu would be sweet.

+2.

 

[Paul Ellington]

I continue to be puzzled by this urban myth that we don't care about audio quality.

4 discreet audio channels - check

24-bit 48KHz sampling - check

Available +48V Phantom power - check

Wide dynamic range - check

Soft limiter - check

Spot on Audio / video Sync - check

Stereo headphone jack - check

Available full size XLRs - check

Available Line in at 0dBu or 0VU reference

Available dual channel line out - check

Available LEMO Timcode In and Out - check

Timecode cross Jam - check

Available AES / EBU digital audio inputs - check

Embedded audio in HD-SDI and HDMI - check

Wireless audio ingest in development - check




It isn't possible to put XLR's on the brain. OK I get that point - however it is still full spec audio quality and you do have the option of the PRO I/O modules, which if you add that to the camera is still smaller than competing professional cameras.

Yeah and us pros have been using dual systems forever, the pro io is gravy... The Size of the Epic/Scarlet alone should make u go wild with excitement.

 

[Paul Ellington]

That does not solve the problem of 1/8" audio inputs on a $40,000 camera. I can kind of understand this on a $4000 prosumer camera -- not a camera like the Epic. I'm sorry, guys, this is really a bizarre shortcoming on an otherwise commendable camera. I continue to be perplexed at Red's indifference to audio with your products.

Everybody kind of got used to the TA3 (mini-XLR) connectors on the Red One, and I kind of accept that you have to go with this from a space/design point of view. But a 50 cent mini plug? Come on. You guys are better than this.

Commendable camera, okay now I am getting upset...

 

[Brook Willard]

That does not solve the problem of 1/8" audio inputs on a $40,000 camera. I can kind of understand this on a $4000 prosumer camera -- not a camera like the Epic. I'm sorry, guys, this is really a bizarre shortcoming on an otherwise commendable camera. I continue to be perplexed at Red's indifference to audio with your products.

Everybody kind of got used to the TA3 (mini-XLR) connectors on the Red One, and I kind of accept that you have to go with this from a space/design point of view. But a 50 cent mini plug? Come on. You guys are better than this.

Guys, let's try and prevent this from getting ugly. RED has a tremendous amount of feedback from a lot of people in different market segments. Every single market segment wants [demands] something different.

To offer the counterpoint:

I've been working with the Epic since before day one. I was the key digital imaging technician on the first movie to shoot *any* Epic at all along with about a half-dozen other features. I've worked with the Epic nearly every single day since before it shipped.

Not one single time in that stretch have I ever recorded audio to the camera. I honestly might have to consult the manual to figure out how to do it.

To me the decision to use 1/8" audio inputs was perfect. There are two primary reasons why. One, they are essentially invisible to me. I don't even have to try to ignore them, they're completely out of my way as a camera person and never cross my mind. Two, I don't pay a volume or mass price for their inclusion. A full-size XLR connector is gigantic. Having full-size XLR connectors on the Epic body would've added several cubic inches to the overall volume of the camera. To me that is unacceptable on a camera that prides itself on its remarkably tiny size.

I'm excited about the Pro IO because of the additional monitor and power outputs it provides. If there were a Pro IO without audio inputs... I'd buy that one instead. In my world audio has no place on a camera if it is going to negatively impact the camera in any way [size, weight, etcetera]. RED's idea to put it on a module is the best balance in my eyes.

So for every person that hates the 1/8" audio inputs on the Epic there is another person that loves them and another still that ignores them.

Let's live up to our professions and find solutions rather than yelling about problems.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Thanks Brook! Perfect wording in my eyes! Totally agree

 

[Paul Kalbach]

I understand using the mini jacks to keep the brain as small as possible. I just wish they had gone with screw-on minis (such as the ones Sennheiser uses on their wireless systems) for a more secure connection. I made the suggestion to Red early in development but it didn't make it into the mix. Oh well...still love my camera and its' SMALL size....

 

[Trevor Meeks]

THANK YOU BROOK! That pretty much sums it up, man.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I continue to be puzzled by this urban myth that we don't care about audio quality.

Find me a sound mixer in Hollywood who loves working with the Red Epic, and I will buy this person lunch.

Stereo headphone jack - check

The last shoot I had, we got almost no level out of the headphone jack. You need at least a couple of hundred millvolts for the output, and I think you're not nearly there. A $150 iPod puts out more (and better) sound, in my experience.

Available full size XLRs - check

Not for Channel 1 and 2. Name another pro camera in the world that costs over $10,000 that uses mini plugs for audio input. I'm hard-pressed to think of a single one.

Available Line in at 0dBu or 0VU reference

Only with a pad. This is not a true line input. Every ENG camera I can remember, going back to the 1970s, has had conventional XLR inputs that are truly switchable microphone or line. I'm also not convinced the distortion specs and headroom on the Epic or Scarlet are acceptable. In that respect, my observation is that audio quality is low on the list of priorities. (I grasp the reality that the camera is optimized 95% for picture.)

Available LEMO Timcode In and Out

Does this work now? To my knowledge, timecode out has not worked in 6 months.

Timecode cross Jam

I worry more about timecode stability. There are not a lot of cameras that can hold, say, 10ppm in terms of timecode accuracy (less than 1 frame in 12 hours) if you turn them on and off. Red has been particularly disappointing in this regard. If you could keep the timecode backed up 100% of the time and make it absolutely rock steady, this would alleviate the requirement for a timecode jam box -- except in situations where you need sync reference, as for 3D or multicam shoots. And again, Red is using a timecode jack no one in the entire industry uses -- a 4-pin Lemo jack. Even the Red One had a jack more compatible with industry practice.

Stuart, I'm not your enemy, and I've been impressed with Red (both the camera and the company) for many years. I've actually defended the camera in some cases with some post supervisors, editors, and engineers. I've been through the Reducation classes and have been impressed by the company's commitment to making great pictures.

But it's clear to me that Red did not do their homework in terms of audio and timecode, and I'm frustrated that even after 8 months, the Pro IO doesn't solve these problems. I grasp the idea of forging new ground and trying different things; the problem for me is, the Epic and Scarlet have to work in the real world with existing audio and TC gear that's been around for decades. Ignoring this is a huge folly.

All strictly in my opinion.

 

[Marc Wielage]

To me the decision to use 1/8" audio inputs was perfect. There are two primary reasons why. One, they are essentially invisible to me. I don't even have to try to ignore them, they're completely out of my way as a camera person and never cross my mind. Two, I don't pay a volume or mass price for their inclusion. A full-size XLR connector is gigantic. Having full-size XLR connectors on the Epic body would've added several cubic inches to the overall volume of the camera.

Using TA3 connectors -- essentially miniature XLRs -- would've been fine by me. I think the internal connector is maybe 1/2" deeper and an inch bigger around than a fragile, poorly-shielded 1/8" mini connector. The 4 x TA3 connectors on the side of the Red One were fine. I don't think anybody would complain with a form factor this size, particularly with a new model that had greater resolution and exposure range like the Epic and Scarlet.

I also would've recommended putting the audio connectors on the back or the sides of the camera. I'm baffled as to why they felt putting inputs 1 & 2 on the front was a good idea. Baffled.

I'm happy with the timecode and genlock signals on the Pro IO module. If the camera can hold timecode accuracy for a long period of time, even with battery changes and reboots, that would be an improvement as well.

 

[Mike Halper]

Find me a sound mixer in Hollywood who loves working with the Red Epic, and I will buy this person lunch.


The last shoot I had, we got almost no level out of the headphone jack. You need at least a couple of hundred millvolts for the output, and I think you're not nearly there. A $150 iPod puts out more (and better) sound, in my experience.


Not for Channel 1 and 2. Name another pro camera in the world that costs over $10,000 that uses mini plugs for audio input. I'm hard-pressed to think of a single one.


Only with a pad. This is not a true line input. Every ENG camera I can remember, going back to the 1970s,....

You owe me lunch. I'm a sound mixer also and have had no issues getting sound into Epic, and do like working with it even when I'm just doing sound. It's scratch track anyway that should be getting replaced with better audio from the recorder. Also these are not ENG cameras. To me they are cameras to replace film cameras, which don't record sound at all. If you need an ENG style camera maybe Red isn't the right camera for that type of work?

 

[Bob Gruen]

My 2 cents...

The front mounted jacks on the camera can be adapted to full sized XLRs by the use of a simple adapter by Wooden Camera. To me the real problem with the jacks will be durability over the years. XLRs are the size that they are to stand up to years of plugging and unplugging, while the type of mini plugs Red put on the Epic and Scarlet don't stand up so well to continued use on consumer devices like IPODs / Walkmen. Once the protective coating on the internal spring loaded contacts wears off the contacts oxidize and the jack will need replacing.

Not having the best sound on the Epic is a forgivable sin, as the Epic truly is a cinema camera targeting that consumer base. Scarlet, on the other hand, targets a user base that arguably requires top notch sound on camera as it will undoubtedly be used on projects where external full sound solution may not be affordable or logistically practical. On balance, built in audio may be the one edge that the R1 has over the newer cameras, although the addition of the Pro IO seemingly gets you the 2 solid channels of audio most projects would need.

I never understood the slams on the mini XLRs. Maybe that's because I bought the purpose built break-away cable that adapts channels 1 & 2 and the 5 pin headphone jack to the full sized XLRs and headphone jack found on just about every portable mixer in use today. It baffles me that Red never made this cable avilable through their website, and honestly it is actually kind of hard to find on the internet (Trew Audio for R1 owners who are interested).

Bob

 

[Sid Idris]

has anyone posted pix of the other side of the PRO IO module? Any ports there?