Prices of SSD Cards

[Justen Nguyen]

Great find Dustin.

Lest we forget that the BMC datastream at max is recording a 12-bit 2.5k image..

I was wary about only running 2x 64gb cards, but once I got into production I realized it was more than enough. Really it's about being smart and selecting the right ratio. 8:1 gives you more than enough shooting time without sacrificing any quality due to compression. If you're shooting higher than that, and on a long form production (feature, tv, doc, etc.) with only 2 cards, then well you kind of made your own bed and they should be paying you more..

http://www.storagereview.com/intel_ssd_520_enterprise_review
There's a review about the intel 520's. The argument between MLC and SLC ssd's still holds weight. If and when SLC ssd's become cheaper, RED will lower the costs match. And they already have, not to mention that they are already working on a line of ssd's for scarlets. I think they've learned enough, to not shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[BrandonChristensen]

Does anyone have the HyperDeck Shuttle?

If so, how is it with the Scarlet?

Looks like something that would make smaller jobs a breeze.

 

[paul schefz]

Well that makes sense for them...their main goal is to make an affordable camera for no-budget filmmakers. People looking at a low cost solution like the BMCC are already giving up security for the low price. Red, Sony and Panasonic are at the top of their industries, they're trying to be the absolute best. The BMCC won't be shooting a new Peter Jackson movie, or Disney's new tentpole, or Ridley Scott's next film, ect.

i don't think that anyone is giving up security...or even taking a chance in any way....BlackMagic simply has a LOT of experience recording to ssd....they simply have a list of approved media and i am sure the failure rate won't be any higher then any other recording media incl red, arri, sony, pana.....
probably right that the next blockbuster won't be shot on the BMCC...but anything with a constrained budget? why not....rent an epic for 3 days or buy the BMCC....no, they are not the same....but for a lot of stuff it will definitely do...
btw: the BMCC shoots uncompressed raw DNG at 5mb/frame....so a 250gb ssd holds about 25min....yes, the medium is cheaper but you need a lot more...and a LOT more storage to keep it all....

 

[Petri Teittinen]

Lest we forget that the BMC datastream at max is recording a 12-bit 2.5k image..

It's not the resolution or the bit depth, it's the amount of megabytes per second being written on disc without dropped frames. BMCC shoots uncompressed RAW at 5 megabytes per frame at 24fps. That's 120 megabytes per second, constant and uninterrupted. That'll fill a 256GB SSD in ~30 minutes, according to BMD.

Epic fills a 256GB REDMAG in 50 minutes using 5:1 compression. In other words, BMCC shooting uncompressed RAW requires a higher-specced SSD than Epic at 5:1. And yet BMCC allegedly pulls this off using consumer SSDs.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Does anyone have the HyperDeck Shuttle?

If so, how is it with the Scarlet?

Looks like something that would make smaller jobs a breeze.

Look up about 5 comments from yours.

Yes. It works really well. Better than RAW in some situations. Only problem is it sometimes needs to get the 'record' button hit once manually before it auto stops/starts. It also doesn't auto-name but it's $3k less than the competition so....

 

[Lee Saxon]

No disrespect meant here, but I don't walk into a high-end restaurant and ask them to explain to me why their burger costs more than a Big Mac®

If it tastes as bad or worse, you do, I think is his point.

 

[BrandonChristensen]

Look up about 5 comments from yours.

Yes. It works really well. Better than RAW in some situations. Only problem is it sometimes needs to get the 'record' button hit once manually before it auto stops/starts. It also doesn't auto-name but it's $3k less than the competition so....

Thanks Gavin. Can't seem to see the write up on it on the last page. I think I'm blind though.

 

[Liana]

I think this sums it up:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65744-SCARLET-ANNOUNCEMENT-Feedback&p=858664#post858664

Red can't afford to have a user's mistake tarnish the Red brand.

Yet this has not stopped Red from releasing the 'constantly evolving' firmware. If they waited for the firmware to be 100% bug free and all-features-working before shipping it, Red would not have achieved what they have today. Neither would the people who 'gambled' on Red. This desire to take a calculated risk is what made the Red-volution possible, both for the company and the consumers.

If the firmware can (potentially) be buggy and tolerated in a production enviornment, why set such a high standard for the media? As long as the user has to click and accept that the non-Red SSD they are using with their Epic / Scarlet could not prove as reliable and durable as Red's finest, I see no issues for Red.

Those that are in the habit of blaming Red for all their woes will always find a way to blame Red, no matter what Red does or where the problem lies (usually between the users' ears, but whatever).

Not everyone will be throwing their SSDs off the cliff. Many will be used in a studio enviornment, where they will be babied like most other gear. If Red must restrict COTS SSDs, the restriction should be more fine-grained. IMHO it is a mistake to treat all COTS SSDs the same (aka they are all bad, unreliable, unworthy of being attached to an Epic or Scarlet etc).

In the early days there were many bad SSDs but through natural selection and evolution there are more and more quality products now and things can only get better from here on.

 

[Gabe Conroy]

Yet this has not stopped Red from releasing the 'constantly evolving' firmware. If they waited for the firmware to be 100% bug free and all-features-working before shipping it, Red would not have achieved what they have today. Neither would the people who 'gambled' on Red. This desire to take a calculated risk is what made the Red-volution possible, both for the company and the consumers.

If the firmware can (potentially) be buggy and tolerated in a production enviornment, why set such a high standard for the media? As long as the user has to click and accept that the non-Red SSD they are using with their Epic / Scarlet could not prove as reliable and durable as Red's finest, I see no issues for Red.

Those that are in the habit of blaming Red for all their woes will always find a way to blame Red, no matter what Red does or where the problem lies (usually between the users' ears, but whatever).

Not everyone will be throwing their SSDs off the cliff. Many will be used in a studio enviornment, where they will be babied like most other gear. If Red must restrict COTS SSDs, the restriction should be more fine-grained. IMHO it is a mistake to treat all COTS SSDs the same (aka they are all bad, unreliable, unworthy of being attached to an Epic or Scarlet etc).

In the early days there were many bad SSDs but through natural selection and evolution there are more and more quality products now and things can only get better from here on.

You can't release hardware updates for download like you can for firmware updates. And generally the issue with firmware is in features which you can work around, whereas with media you're talking about possibly losing a day's footage which can be incredibly expensive. Many times more expensive than the price of the media.

And how do you expect Red to push boundaries when they have to worry about compatibility with a bunch of other manufacturers? Or if they have a bunch of different grades of SSDs in their own line up to worry about? Would you give up Dragon for cheaper media?

The thing is that the only comparable example is from Panasonic and Sony, and Red's SSDs are right in line in price. It's okay to express a desire for cheaper media, but it seems absurd to me to criticize Red's prices based on computer SSDs and ignore other high-end camera media.

 

[Chuck Z]

You can't release hardware updates for download like you can for firmware updates.

SSDs receive firmware updates just like any other hardware. Not to mention, it's very easy to do and takes a VERY short amount of time.

I don't really follow your line of thought.

You wouldn't apply a firmware update on media that had clips recorded on it at the time. You would do something like a secure erase, and then apply the update.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think people are ok with clicking in their audio or a lack of resolutions. Dropped frames is unacceptable.

 

[Adam Levins]

I think people are ok with clicking in their audio or a lack of resolutions. Dropped frames is unacceptable.

I am not OK with clicking in my audio. I am getting a bit tired of some of the red apologists around here. They gave a time-fame for the Lower priced SSD to be out and have missed it. So we can complain if we like, fair game. I personally choose not to complain as I don't see the point.

 

[DL Fitch]

It's not the resolution or the bit depth, it's the amount of megabytes per second being written on disc without dropped frames. BMCC shoots uncompressed RAW at 5 megabytes per frame at 24fps. That's 120 megabytes per second, constant and uninterrupted. That'll fill a 256GB SSD in ~30 minutes, according to BMD.

Epic fills a 256GB REDMAG in 50 minutes using 5:1 compression. In other words, BMCC shooting uncompressed RAW requires a higher-specced SSD than Epic at 5:1. And yet BMCC allegedly pulls this off using consumer SSDs.

Pretty sure you can fit closer to 110 minutes @ 5:1 on a 256GB SSD...

 

[Bob Gundu]

Pretty sure you can fit closer to 110 minutes @ 5:1 on a 256GB SSD...

About 50 min is correct at 5k full 5:1.

 

[Gabe Conroy]

SSDs receive firmware updates just like any other hardware. Not to mention, it's very easy to do and takes a VERY short amount of time.

I don't really follow your line of thought.

You wouldn't apply a firmware update on media that had clips recorded on it at the time. You would do something like a secure erase, and then apply the update.

Of course you can update firmware for hardware. That's not what I said. I said you can't update hardware...you know, the actual physical hardware. You can't download physical hardware.

 

[Mike Garrick]

IMO people should consider SSD's like film stock .......400ft roll @ 1.5 ft a sec @24fps or a 1,000ft ( man all this getting hazy ! ).

Anyway so a 64G SSD can handle about 3 times a 1,000 ft roll @ 4k on 6.1 rez. Film, I can't even remember accurate stock costs plus lab fees etc. But,...however you do the sums shooting the equivalent durations on both film & digital you are paying far less for SSD's ( @ the old higher price) per sec than film.

The killer of course is SSD's are reusable. So therefore..... if your shooting digitally, commensurate quality to film, after the 1st shoot SSD's have paid for themselves. Everything after that is gravy.

However if your treating SSD's like tapestock than maybe you need to have a hard look at your shoot ratio's, workflows & why. Because this camera IMO isn't a tape camera in any way shape or form. Where you have a bag full of digital tape stock which you feed into the camera & keep rolling just in case you get something because "its only tape".

 

[Paul Schneider]

I suspect two things.

1. Red makes a sh*tload of cash from the makeup on their media. In fact, I believe this may be one of the more profitable elements for the company.
2. CinemaDNG will continue to develop and usurp the industry.

Other than the fact that I curse a bit every time I buy a red mag, I really have no ill will for them making money where they can find it. However, in two years most of the world will be 4K Raw using an open source codec and as a camera owner I'd love to be able to speculate on how red will manage that reality...but I really have no idea. I suspect they'll have to open up the codec in some way, but it can't stay closed...its ultimately a death sentence.

 

[Paul Ellington]

I suspect two things.

1. Red makes a sh*tload of cash from the makeup on their media. In fact, I believe this may be one of the more profitable elements for the company.
2. CinemaDNG will continue to develop and usurp the industry.

Other than the fact that I curse a bit every time I buy a red mag, I really have no ill will for them making money where they can find it. However, in two years most of the world will be 4K Raw using an open source codec and as a camera owner I'd love to be able to speculate on how red will manage that reality...but I really have no idea. I suspect they'll have to open up the codec in some way, but it can't stay closed...its ultimately a death sentence.

Devil's advocate, though I don't believe in the Devil or that RED is it, if they wanted to just make money they wouldn't have put esata nor come out with USB 3 readers. Doing this means effectively if you are on any kind of real production you could probably get by with 2 cards, maybe three. Shooting Scarlet no trouble with offloading times, shooting Epic, a little longer but not much.

Do they make some money, sure, probably, shouldn't they be able to? Was't it fun knowing Canon ripped their customers off with the C300 at launch but owning a much more advanced camera for less than they were selling their camera for... And here is an argument over SSD's... Sorry, but guys, wasting your time on the wrong stuff... Go shoot something.

With very warm regards,

- E

 

[Tom Wardrop]

Yikes, I apologize for asking in the forum for questions then.... I'm not a Senior Member, as you can see so, to me being brand new to this, it's a valid question and everyone's been beyond cool about prior questions -- until now. I scrolled through 15 pages under this forum heading and didn't see "this shit" being talked about, nor was it a 'sticky' topic.

People don't like questions that are difficult to answer let alone justify. If someone is set on defending RED, they'd rather not have to deal with difficult question's like these. I always get very emotional and rude responses to relatively simple questions like these.

It's nice to see a few links in this thread to a few of the posts I made which invoked some more substantial responses from Jarred and others when I really tried to get to the bottom of this over a year ago, e.g. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65744-SCARLET-ANNOUNCEMENT-Feedback&p=858664#post858664.

I've concluded it's a matter of control. For now at least, it's just easier for RED to play it safe and maintain control of as much of the technology pipeline as possible. There's a lot of benefits to having control, and put in RED's position, I'm not sure what I would do. As a hobbyist/consumer though, it is very annoying because I know an off-the-shelf 2.5" SSD would exceed all of my shooting requirements, as well as many others. Unfortunately, at least at this point in time, RED's got to cater to the common denominator, which is the high-risk high-cost professional markets who demand what can only be delivered by having control over the media. I just wish they used standard interfaces so people who could take the risk coukd use 3rd party media in some shape or form. I guess the problem then is that they lose sales from their media channel which either lowers returns or forces RED to rise the price making RED just a little worse value-for-money.

 

[Simon Knight]

the simple answer is two-fold, and the way I intend to use my Scarlet.
Atomos Ninja with inexpensive HDDs for general docs recorded at 2k and then 2x 120GB redmags for the 4K stuff. The only difference is that I archive the HDDs and NEVER overwrite. The RedMags will over time (downtime) get moved to HDDs and then archived. But then that's my luck as i'm only half busy - as it were!

As for proprietary connections- lets watch apple with their new lightening connector for iPad and iPhone.. Bet they"ll survive..!

SK
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