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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Pretty easy to understand...

Not exactly sure what you just said but I would certainly debate C300 "looks and feels nicer". Really?

Jim

Subhadip Sen said:
Unfortunately, none of the above accounts for the single most important decision factor - emotion and subjectivity. Anyone can choose to shoot on C300 over Epic because "it looks nicer" (on a 2K display) or Final Cut Pro / OS X over Premiere / Windows because "it feels nicer" (using transcoded ProRes material) and there is no argument against it even though there are clear objective merits for the choice foregone. The good news is we have choice, the rest is up to the consumer.
Click to expand...
 
It is really hard to listen to this stuff. What are people thinking?

Jim
 
Jannard said:
It is really hard to listen to this stuff. What are people thinking?

Jim
Click to expand...

I struggle to understand myself. I could argue "RAW, 5K, 120fps etc." all I want, but they are convinced, "But it looks nicer to me". Perhaps it is best to accept it as "opinion" and move along.
 
Resolution-wise properly scaled down Red Epic material currently looks nicer than anything else on the market IMO. I don't know any "HD" camera that touches it.
 
I guess I'm just talking from a technical and subjective point of view and am not smoking dope when doing camera tests prior to shoots :)
 
Phil Holland said:
Resolution-wise properly scaled down Red Epic material currently looks nicer than anything else on the market IMO. I don't know any "HD" camera that touches it.
Click to expand...


From a purely image-technical POV, there's nothing I have seen that
even touches the Epic in possibilities, flexibilities and versatility on set and in post.

BUT that is also its achilles heel towards a few users. It is considered expensive and difficult because people think they HAVE TO do all that "weird shit" compared to a straight video cam. They don't get that it is totally legit, quick fast and funny to use it as a videocam, and then expand.
 
I think it means that there are no objective arguments against a EPIC or a SCARLET. Therefore the followers of the other manufacturers use subjective arguments like "it looks better to my eyes" because they want to justify their "bad buy". Maybe a psychological effect ;-)
 
Gunleik Groven said:
From a purely image-technical POV, there's nothing I have seen that
even touches the Epic in possibilities, flexibilities and versatility on set and in post.

BUT that is also its achilles heel towards a few users. It is considered expensive and difficult because people think they HAVE TO do all that "weird shit" compared to a straight video cam. They don't get that it is totally legit, quick fast and funny to use it as a videocam, and then expand.
Click to expand...

Heheh. I like doing all that "weird shit". Gives the shooter and colorist control. A lot of control.

It's similar to the Camera Raw versus JPG mindset on the still side of the world. But once you go Raw you'll never go back. Same deal with shooting below 4k really. But that's coming from somebody who cares about how their material looks and what you can with it in post :)
 
Jannard said:
Everyone gets to do whatever they want. But there are some things to consider.

IMHO... a Pro should shoot the best original he/she can afford to shoot. It never hurts.

Shooting RAW is infinitely better than shooting an RGB codec. For a million reasons.

Upgrading a camera is cheaper than buying new cameras... over and over.

Having the ability to use many lens options/brands is better than being stuck with one.

Shooting a small camera is easier than shooting a big one... for a variety of reasons.

Free software and firmware upgrades that add features... is good.

Over-sampling is better than up-rezzing.

A company that listens seems better than a company that dictates.

Companies that actually deliver the future are better than those that pretend the past "is good enough".

Pretty easy stuff...

Jim
Click to expand...

Agree with you on all fronts Jim. And what's more, my clients are agreeing with everything your saying here. Only had my EPIC since mid-February and everyone we speak to, work with, is agreeing with the above. I'm letting the the images and workflow speak for itself, and its working.

Thanks for the work you've steer the team to doing thus far and I can't wait to see what announcements you have for NAB.

:))
 
I know, phil...

But working in a rather big house, has opened up my eyes to how outright scared people are for doing "something wrong" with the red files. They don't just trust their eyes and knowledge, like they would've with another cam.

Getting that confidence into the user, is important.

And I think Ubergeek posts - like mune - about how you can push that extra stop out of the cam, may have contributed to that...

My point these days is more how easy it can be, than all the geeky jazz...

And the necessity to be geeky, disappeared with the Epic.

It is/was a part neccesity with the R1
 
Pretty much sums up everything. Excelent thread and post. Lets not forget that we, even though not phisicaly, KNOW the people at red and their passion about the camera and the technology they are developing. If the reasons stated here in this thread aren't enough, people have to consider that these people are committed passionately to pushing boundaries. The others, well, they are committed to a business model and to "respond".
 
Jannard said:
Everyone gets to do whatever they want. But there are some things to consider.

IMHO... a Pro should shoot the best original he/she can afford to shoot. It never hurts.

Shooting RAW is infinitely better than shooting an RGB codec. For a million reasons.

Upgrading a camera is cheaper than buying new cameras... over and over.

Having the ability to use many lens options/brands is better than being stuck with one.

Shooting a small camera is easier than shooting a big one... for a variety of reasons.

Free software and firmware upgrades that add features... is good.

Over-sampling is better than up-rezzing.

A company that listens seems better than a company that dictates.

Companies that actually deliver the future are better than those that pretend the past "is good enough".

Pretty easy stuff...

Jim
Click to expand...

That's all true but only from a certain point of view:

The points about always shooting the best possible quality original and it being better to shoot RAW makes more sense from a Cinema point of view; whereas from a for the web or fast turnaround, or even hour long broadcast documentary point of view there is a balance to be struck between the quality of the original and the challenges filming that way will pose to your workflow. From many of these non-cinema perspectives it might make more sense to use C300 or an DSLR or even a sony EX3 than a RED Scarlet or Epic.

The point about upgrading cameras being cheaper than buying a new one is I suspect more true if you are buying expensive cameras. I know you are doing your very best but there will surely be a decent cost to upgrading to the Dragon sensor, both in price and in the logistics of sending such a delicate package a long distance.

It's definitely better to film with a smaller lighter camera up to the point that shaky hands ruin the shot, but even a pared down Epic or Scarlet is not the lightest or smallest camera in the pack. The size and weight of the camera, accessories and crucially the logistics of battery use and recharging mean that both are much more serious pieces of kit than a DSLR is for example. And quite right too since the image quality is so much better! But I guess my main point is that for me at least the 4K image doesn't necessarily trump every other card.
 
If "current-proofing" doesn't matter to you... then you have a lot more options.

Jim

Fergus Meiklejohn said:
But I guess my main point is that for me at least the 4K image doesn't necessarily trump every other card.
Click to expand...
 
[Everyone gets to do whatever they want. But there are some things to consider.

IMHO... a Pro should shoot the best original he/she can afford to shoot. It never hurts.

Shooting RAW is infinitely better than shooting an RGB codec. For a million reasons.

Upgrading a camera is cheaper than buying new cameras... over and over.

Having the ability to use many lens options/brands is better than being stuck with one.

Shooting a small camera is easier than shooting a big one... for a variety of reasons.

Free software and firmware upgrades that add features... is good.

Over-sampling is better than up-rezzing.

A company that listens seems better than a company that dictates.

Companies that actually deliver the future are better than those that pretend the past "is good enough".

Pretty easy stuff...

Jim]

I always wanted a camera to replace 35mm or 16mm film, because it was expensive to film stock one would miss a
lot of behavior filming wildlife because of this.

Video changed things, but the quality of the image could not match film, even HD was not good enough.

I wanted a camera to match 35mm even in 2006 with all the points you have made above, this article
summarizes it all.

http://www.itp.net/492370-animal-planet/?tab=article

Then 2008 and RED one happened and the rest is history.

Thanks Jim, please do continue to think from OUR point of view, the cameraman,cinematographer
or whatever title you want to use as a person who makes a living out of filming/shooting images

Yusuf Thakur
VFX,Dubai
www.vfxme.com
Click to expand...
 
Jannard said:
It is really hard to listen to this stuff. What are people thinking?

Jim
Click to expand...

People don´t listen, they don´t look, they don´t want to understand certain facts.
This reminds me of a silly showbiz joke: a man comes to a theatre agent with a briefcase and says `I have here the smallest man on earth´. The agent show no interest whatsoever. The guy opens the briefcase and a tiny man appears, not even 1 ft tall. He takes a bow and smiles. They both look at the agent `What do you say?´ The agent looks at them disdainfully and goes: `I have seen bigger dwarfs than this.´
Sorry if I have mangled the joke with my basic English, but the point is that prejudice and routine makes you blind to life.
And so it happens with cameras. People `are used´ to brands, shapes, sizes, weights, they believe what they see and when they look at an Epic, they go: `oh, it´s bigger than I thought, `heavy, isn´t it?´, `it can´t do prores, too bad´, `why 5k? We have always done HD and it´s fabulous´
Many of them don´t even remotely realize what they are looking at.
Many of them would not be there if we were still using film ...
 
Working with the epic, owning a Scarlet, waiting for the dragon... I've been thinking I couldn't go back now after I've seen the light. How could I?
 
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