Premiere to Davinci

[Dana Rice]

I'm on the verge of completing my edit on a feature film shot on the Red MX in 4.5K and edited natively in Adobe Premiere CS5. I was hoping to color correct in Davinci, but just had a few questions. First, I was curious about getting my timeline into Davinci... I've exported an EDL from Premiere and tried to bring it into Apple Color but Color is unable to relink to any of the clips, even if I relink the clips manually Color simply starts the clip from the very beginning and not from where the edit points are. I don't yet own Davinci to test it out, but will Davinci have similar problems, or am I simply doing something wrong?

Secondly, I shot and edited in 4.5K but have blown up several shots all the way to 200% with the intention of a final output at 2240 x 960 my plan was to create a new sequence at 2240 x 960 in Premiere and copy and paste my 4.5K sequence in there and then reduce the scale on all clips by 50% so that no clips go above 100% scale. Is that the proper way to do it or is it better to import the 4.5K sequence into Davinci and do all the rescaling there?

Lastly, does anyone have any recommendations for a color grading monitor in the $2000 price range?

Thanks

 

[Oliver Peters]

I'm not sure if DaVinci Resolve can import DPX and parse them according to an EDL. I believe it can. Color does. In any case, you can export your edited sequence from Premiere Pro as DPX plus an EDL. Then import that into Resolve. The EDL will parse the long image sequence into individual cut points. You will have to test the DPX export to make sure it works if you are editing with native R3D files. You should probably do the scaling in Resolve. There are no true grading monitors in the $2K range. However, you might find something decent and close to that from Flanders, JVC, Panasonic or TV Logic. But, it will depends on the desired size.

- Oliver

 

[jake blackstone]

A lot of misleading info here.
First of all, where do DPX come from? Dana was talking about working with R3Ds, so why DPX and all? Second of all, yes, DPX carries the TC info, so it's not a problem to use an EDL and conform using DPX in Resolve or any other proper color grading software. In a sense, Color is not a proper color grading software, because it has no appreciable editing capabilities, other, than an ability to open the timeline from FCP. Just collapse your timeline to a single line, export proper CMX 3600 generic EDL and go to town with Resolve, it's all good...
I regularly use Sony GDM-FW900, 24" CRT, that is over 10 years old. It cost me a whopping $100 on Ebay. It's regularly calibrated and I would take it over my 60" Pro Pana plasma display any day...

 

[Shane Betts]

Jake's dead right. On all fronts. Export an EDL from PPP, import it into Resolve and relink to the R3ds. Even without a Red Rocket card, with a 12 core Mac and a decent GPU card, you should get very close to real time playback. Why would you use DPX? And, as for grading monitors, the important thing is calibration. I have experts telling me they'd rather trust an uncalibrated "grading monitor" than a properly calibrated high-end domestic projector. Rubbish. Sure, given correct calibration, the better the gear, the better the image but an expensive bit of kit does not cover up a lack of calibration. Buy the best you can and spend the time to calibrate it as well as you can. Get your head around its shortcomings and then trust it within its limitations. You'll be fine.

 

[Oliver Peters]

The DPX was my suggestion as an alternative approach. The advantage is linking to and parsing a completely edited sequence in context without the need to link to longer raw clips and conform the timeline. This boils to to using Color in conjunction with PPro, if Dana opts not to use Resolve.

It wasn't entirely clear to me whether Dana was talking about grading on the same system or going out of house to another shop with DaVinci. There's nothing wrong with rendering to the DPX files and it is a pretty common approach. If you render from PPro, the embedded TC will be the sequence TC and not the source TC. But if this is going to be done on the same system, then yes I agree, grading from the R3D files would be preferable.

I would question buying a used grading CRT on E-bay, though. Even if it's calibrated, when the tube goes (which could be any time), you won't be able to afford a replacement. Then it's back to finding another E-bay special ;-)

- Oliver

 

[M Most]

I would question buying a used grading CRT on E-bay, though. Even if it's calibrated, when the tube goes (which could be any time), you won't be able to afford a replacement. Then it's back to finding another E-bay special ;-)

You probably won't be able to FIND a replacement, even if you could afford one. They are no longer being manufactured.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

You probably won't be able to FIND a replacement, even if you could afford one. They are no longer being manufactured.

Not heavily doubting you ... but we had a tube replaced on a Sony BVM-D not to long ago?

Michael L

 

[Oliver Peters]

I believe you can still buy "no-name" after-market CRT replacement tubes. These are not original manufactured items, i.e. not Sony.

- Oliver

 

[jake blackstone]

I would question buying a used grading CRT on E-bay, though. Even if it's calibrated, when the tube goes (which could be any time), you won't be able to afford a replacement. Then it's back to finding another E-bay special ;-)

- Oliver

To quote recent post "you could be hit by a bus" then what? If CRT goes, it goes. I happen to have a spare identical monitor sitting in the back just in case... But if it meets the specs, stable, calibrated and performs as it should, then why worry?
If you can't find a replacement, you could also try the rejuvenation. It works up to a point...

 

[Marc Wielage]

You probably won't be able to FIND a replacement, even if you could afford one. They are no longer being manufactured.

Very true. There's also the issue of tube CRTs drifting over time, plus the well-known Sony BVM "blue blacks" problem. Lot of issues. In fact, isn't the GDM 1080i only? (It's been a long time since I used one.)

I think the Panasonic TH-50PF20 50" Plasma is quickly becoming the standard broadcast color-correction monitor all over LA, at least at Technicolor, Ascent, Company 3, Post Group, Laser-Pacific, and a half-dozen other firms that are moving away from CRTs. You have to use it with an external LUT box to cheat it into true Rec709 color space, plus there's the issue of feeding it HD-SDI (which can be expensive depending on how you do it), but it actually looks pretty good. I did a project about 18 months ago that started on a Sony BVM-32 and moved to the Panasonic, and both the director and I were surprised to see how well it translated. I doubt that it needed more than a couple of hours to tweak a few dozen shots between the two. Of course, calibration is critical.

As far as workflow goes, my advice would be to avoid trying to do it all yourself and get an experienced post supervisor and/or a colorist who knows specifically how to conform and grade the image. This will save you hours (maybe days) of work and avoid many potential delays and problems.

 

[jake blackstone]

Very true. There's also the issue of tube CRTs drifting over time, plus the well-known Sony BVM "blue blacks" problem. Lot of issues. In fact, isn't the GDM 1080i only? (It's been a long time since I used one.)

GDM FW900 is a true 2k multi-sync monitor, capable of displaying 2560 X 1600 progressive image at up to 85 Hz.

 

[M Most]

You have to use it with an external LUT box to cheat it into true Rec709 color space, plus there's the issue of feeding it HD-SDI (which can be expensive depending on how you do it), but it actually looks pretty good. .

That seems to be said here all the time (the LUT box part), but the reality is that I don't know of any facility that actually does that, including the ones you listed. Do you? Everyone I know of shoots the screen to get accurate readings and uses the monitor's own controls to get the white point correct, the blacks and greys balanced, and the brightness, black level, and saturation correct. I don't know of anyone using 3D LUTs, although I'm not arguing against it.

 

[jake blackstone]

That seems to be said here all the time (the LUT box part), but the reality is that I don't know of any facility that actually does that, including the ones you listed. Do you? Everyone I know of shoots the screen to get accurate readings and uses the monitor's own controls to get the white point correct, the blacks and greys balanced, and the brightness, black level, and saturation correct. I don't know of anyone using 3D LUTs, although I'm not arguing against it.

I have done profiling of the GDM monitor and had built the adjustment LUT for it, but, frankly, the difference is minute, at least for this CRT monitor, so I stopped using it. Plasma on the other hand...

 

[Marc Wielage]

That seems to be said here all the time (the LUT box part), but the reality is that I don't know of any facility that actually does that, including the ones you listed. Do you?

Yep, we do. The red gamut was a little out of control and couldn't be constrained, and the box (its name is on the tip of my tongue, but I can't recall it) fixed it immediately. There simply wasn't enough control range to bring it back. It makes me nuts that the 20-series Panasonics can't be tweaked as close to Rec709 as the earlier 11-series plasmas. I'm told by an engineering friend of mine at another facility that this is a known issue, and not many people care about it. In the grand scheme of things, it may not really matter.

I don't like the visible "stepping" on the plasmas with certain gradiated backgrounds, especially in fades. So far, no clients have noticed it, so it may be an issue so subtle that people are just going with it. I never saw any problems like this with the BVM-32E CRT's, nor do I have it with the Christie CP2000s.

Figuring out what the "standard" monitor to use that will translate well to all viewing environments is a vexing problem. It'd be nice if SMPTE would come up with some minimum requirements, but I'm told the committee is still working out the standards. The old RP almost doesn't apply any more, since they were all created during the CRT era, and I doubt that many viewers are looking at anything but LCDs and plasmas these days.

 

[jake blackstone]

The more I use Panny Plasma, the more I notice the flicker and "stepping". No clients ever complained, but I really dislike it. That is why, when I'm in doubt, I use good old CRT. It just works, never any issues with artifacts. My Panny Plasma is 10 bit SDI and my Sony only 8 bit analog, nevertheless, Sony always performs better.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The CRT suffers the same artifacting, it just doesn't show with the slower phosphor response. Subfield refresh on Panny 12 and 13th generation plasma panels is 600Hz. You would think that's fast enough to not notice, and yes, it mostly is. But it makes frame transitions very sharp and makes flickering very noticeable in your peripheral vision areas. LCD is easier on the eyes in this regard, but has its own share of issues. RGB backlight systems on the newer panels are finally making LCD worthwhile... Unfortunately Samsung and LG are struggling at getting this technology adapted to larger displays (above 30"). Not sure what the deal is. I'm hoping the new Samsung and LG displays for 2011 will be better than last years attempts. The 2010 Samsung displays had terrible light leakage and the multi-point dynamic backlighting caused more problems than it fixed. They were overall a step backward from their 2009 models. What a shame.

So far, the only monitor I've seen that I would consider replacing my Panny 50" with is the new 4K SONY rear projection that was on display at NAB at the SONY and AJA booths. But I'm not spending $30K on a display right now... And it also had some noticeable tearing issues... Nope.

 

[jake blackstone]

The annoying aspect, that I see, that is totally absent on CRT is the "switching of the excitement" stage. I guess it's done to keep blacks deep enough and at the same time to keep plasma ready to be fired up for bright images, so the lag is manageable. I have no idea how else to describe it. At certain video level, especially in B/W, Pana plasma just flickers. And, if the level is changing, it's really noticeable. CRT has zero issue with this. And I use 72 Hz refresh rate on it. It's not 120Hz, that is used on my Pro plasma, but it's not that far off...

 

[Marc Wielage]

The more I use Panny Plasma, the more I notice the flicker and "stepping". No clients ever complained, but I really dislike it. That is why, when I'm in doubt, I use good old CRT. It just works, never any issues with artifacts.

I've worked with 24p so long, I'm immune to any flicker issues. I agree, the gray-scale stepping is definitely an issue, and I'm amazed that more clients don't see it. But it's gotta be even worse with an 8-bit system.

The problem is, I think we have to use a monitor that relates to what people are actually using in 2011. For this reason, I don't think using CRTs makes any sense anymore.

I was recently in a situation where a home video client was uncomfortable with a $150,000 D-cinema projector and asked to see a Plasma screen instead. We assured them that the projector was precisely set up for Rec709. Their excuse was, "well, yeah, but we watch plasmas at all the other facilities -- it's what we're used to." I don't argue with clients in situations like this.

The 2010 Samsung displays had terrible light leakage and the multi-point dynamic backlighting caused more problems than it fixed.

I recently saw a situation where the Samsung changed the overall display video level in a vertical credit crawl against a black background. Drove me nuts. Do they still have this problem?

 

[jake blackstone]

I've worked with 24p so long, I'm immune to any flicker issues. I agree, the gray-scale stepping is definitely an issue, and I'm amazed that more clients don't see it. But it's gotta be even worse with an 8-bit system.

For some reason, may be because Sony is an analog device, there is no noticeable 8 bit stepping, that one would expect. As a matter of fact, very often 8 bit Sony will look better, than 10 bit plasma. Go figure