Premiere EXPORT looks NOTHING like the grade/timeline preview

[Micah O'Keiley]

I am editing/grading Red Dragon 6k/5k/4k R3D files directly on a Premiere timeline; graded with "direct link to speedgrade" and "exported" via "direct link to premiere" back into premiere.

For whatever reason, I can NOT, for the life of me, get the final export to look like the grade/timeline preview in both Pr and Sg.
I have exported 7 times now, all with different settings and nothing is changing.

The grade that I see in Pr and Sg has pretty decent contrast and vibrant color/highlights; the final export has none of this.

The final render/export looks like it's ungraded, flat and "muddy".
It's definitely a bit different than the "RAW" footage, but not by much.

Some info:
Windows 7 PC
Premiere CC 2014 (current)
Speedgrade CC 2014 (current)

Color Version: Version 2
Color Space: REDColor3
Gamma Curve: REDgamma3

My most recent Export Settings were:
H.264
.mp4 file
4096x2304
23.976
Progressive
VBR, 2 Pass
60Mbps/60mbps
AAC 320kbps
48 kHz
Stereo

With:
Profile: High
Level 5.1
Render at Maximum Depth

I have tried toggling Max Depth on off.
I have tried toggling Use Max Render Quility.
I have tried different Bitrates from 8-max and different VBR.

Still nothing.

All I need is a 4k export that I can upload to Vimeo/Youtube, that will look great in high quality that MATCHES my grade/timeline preview.

I am still somewhat new to the RED workflow, and I feel like I am missing a step somewhere in the process.
Please help

 

[Richard Coburn]

Hey Micah

H.264 might be your issue. Quicktime likes to mess with your gamma settings, you could try exporting a small section as an image sequence (tiff, tga etc) to compare and narrow it down to that being where the problem lies.

Cheers
Rich

 

[Richard Coburn]

One suggestion from my machine room guys is to export out uncompressed from the edit suite (Premiere) and try a different tool like Mpeg Streamclip to make your H.264 version.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

I like to export to uncompressed first and than use that file in adobe media encoder to create the h264. Otherwise i get the same problem.

 

[Micah O'Keiley]

Interesting issue...

Thanks guys!

Which codec do you suggest for uncompressed?
DPX 4k Full Range, MXF OP1a with a XAVC Intra 4k or something like that?

(WTB prores for windows)

 

[Micah O'Keiley]

Update. I tried export as DPX and the footage from that looks correct, but as soon as I convert to .h264 via Adobe Media encoder, the final export looks muddy and flat again...

Ugh, this is starting to frustrate me.

Maybe this image will help you to understand the problem.
It shows my grade and what it's exporting/uploading to vimeo/youtube as...

http://i.imgur.com/RyT5Zsa.jpg

Thoughts?

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

What software are you using to look at and play your h264 files? Are you using QuickTime as a player? Because if so it's a player issue. QuickTime on windows really screws with you. Try playing it back on other player like VLC player.

 

[Dustin Dooley]

What software are you using to look at and play your h264 files? Are you using QuickTime as a player? Because if so it's a player issue. QuickTime on windows really screws with you. Try playing it back on other player like VLC player.

I second this. I ran into this issue with QuickTime player and it drove me nuts as it would look just like your example. If you are still seeing this with other players try the new way of exporting by going into media encoder and import the premiere project. CC2014 has been giving me fits when I try to export directly from Premiere but seams to work fine when I pull it from media encoder.

 

[Keith Putnam]

You're encountering the dreaded and pandemic QuickTime Gamma Shift. The only way I've ever beaten it is by using the open source x264 encoder and manually setting it so the output file has the proper gamma.
http://www.videolan.org/developers/x264.html

 

[Dustin Dooley]

I have had success by avoiding the QuickTime preset and using just the H.264 codec. There are three ways to encode H.264 in media encoder being Quicktime , bluray, and H.264. Are you using the QuickTime preset, or just straight H.264? It shouldn't make a difference but it does.

 

[Alexander Mejia]

Your export isn't getting the proper RGB-->TV levels conversion. There are two possible places this may be happening:

1) when you export, your levels are getting lifted twice. This could be possible if you are exporting to one format, and then again to another using a bad video encoding software:

2) Your levels are being displayed incorrectly when you are watching the h.264 file since it only supports TV levels.

If you're using google chrome, your blacks will be displayed incorrectly. Ive filed many bugs for this and they still have not fixed it. There is a workaround for Nvidia cards if you go into the Nvidia Control panel and change the video color settings to FULL 0-255

 

[Alexander Mejia]

I personally use MPC-HC to validate video files since you can control color management, and TV/RGB level conversions right inside the player. DONT use Quicktime Player, DONT use VLC, and try to avoid Windows Media Player unless you're testing what could happen when a normal user plays back your file.

 

[Charles Bergquist]

Here's the solution I always use and it works.

http://www.x264pro.com

 

[Micah O'Keiley]

What software are you using to look at and play your h264 files? Are you using QuickTime as a player? Because if so it's a player issue. QuickTime on windows really screws with you. Try playing it back on other player like VLC player.

I've tried Quicktime for windows and VLC.
I have also uploaded to youtube and vimeo and the footage looks exactly like the quicktime/vlc player images and none of them look like the premiere/speedgrade preview windows.

I have had success by avoiding the QuickTime preset and using just the H.264 codec. There are three ways to encode H.264 in media encoder being Quicktime , bluray, and H.264. Are you using the QuickTime preset, or just straight H.264? It shouldn't make a difference but it does.

I am using the straight H.264 Codec.
The quicklime preset in h.264 won't even let me export 4k footage, 2k is the largest I can get it to export in; same with bluray.

Your export isn't getting the proper RGB-->TV levels conversion. There are two possible places this may be happening:
1) when you export, your levels are getting lifted twice. This could be possible if you are exporting to one format, and then again to another using a bad video encoding software:

I've been exporting directly from premiere.

I tried exporting to DPX then converting to h.264 in Adobe Media Converter, yet, I'm getting the same issue.


To be honest, this seems like a really stupid problem to be having...

 

[Dustin Dooley]

If you want, I'm willing to give it a try. Can you basically strip most of your media and send over your premiere file with a small bit of media? It also may help to have a sliver of your output file and I can see if my transcoded outputs the same.

One thing we may not be taking into consideration is that the transcoding is losing the Speedgrade info. I am also going to try and recreate this on some of my clips.

P.s. yes this is an annoying problem.

 

[Nick Morrison]

You're encountering the dreaded and pandemic QuickTime Gamma Shift. The only way I've ever beaten it is by using the open source x264 encoder and manually setting it so the output file has the proper gamma.
http://www.videolan.org/developers/x264.html

Keith is a very smart man. I work in broadcast, and this dreaded Quicktime Gamma shift is something we struggle with routinely. If you use a more sophisticated encoder such as Sorenson Squeeze there are often gamma settings you can adjust to try and correct this.

But as Keith says, our engineers have confirmed to me x264 appears to be more color accurate, yes.

Hope this helps.

Also. Try going into some form of advanced settings and switching color space from RGB to Rec 601/709, or reverse of that (ie flip it opposite of whatever is NOT working currently). That sometimes can help...I often have same issue on our Avids if they are accidentally set to RGB (when they are natively working in 601/709). And flipping it back to REC 601/709 makes everything "right" again.

Good luck!

best

 

[Micah O'Keiley]

Just out of curiosity, am I making a mistake with my workflow that is impacting this result?

Shoot video > Import to Computer/Hdd > Open Premiere > Dump all Red Footage into Premiere > Edit Native R3D Files IN premiere > Grade in SG via link > Add titles in Premiere > export.

I've never had this problem with DSLR footage (though I usually export a master to import into davinci and then back into premiere), but Exporting RED lossless masters seem like such a pain.
Is that just a part of the workflow that NEEDs to be there and I'm skipping a step?

Exporting a master per major instance (after final edit; again after VFX; again after grading; etc...)

Seems stupid to have to keep exporting masters to work on footage that can be natively edited in the one platform.
I guess I'm trying to figure out if it's an Adobe issue or my personal workflow issue.


And thanks to everyone who has contributed!!

 

[Micah O'Keiley]

I personally use MPC-HC to validate video files since you can control color management, and TV/RGB level conversions right inside the player. DONT use Quicktime Player, DONT use VLC, and try to avoid Windows Media Player unless you're testing what could happen when a normal user plays back your file.

OK. So after playing around with a few things, I decided to Try Alex's suggestion and try MPC-HC to watch the videos...

Now it's REALLY getting strange:

- ALL of the videos I have previously exported look FINE (with the correct grade) in MPC-HC.
- BUT I have tried ALL of those exports to Vimeo/Youtube and NONE of them look like the PR/SG preview or MPC-HC.

I truly don't understand what is going on at this point....

 

[Dustin Dooley]

Have you tried another computer yet? That would at least narrow down that it is something in that computer messing things up for you.

 

[Chris Lowe]

I had a problem like this before. The problem for me turned out that windows was recognizing a different color profile than premiere. Have you recently installed any monitor drivers?