Premiere and AME = Hell on earth.

[Piero Sgarbi]

So here's my story.

I started my first editing with Premiere CS4, and then basically I used 5, 6, 7, and now CC.

Now simultaneously when I started using CC I decided to buy a Mac Pro, (6 Core, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Dual D700) so then I started messing around with Final Cut and I loved it.

But I had thousands of vital plugins on CC so I had to use it for some specific things.



Well now I basically:

1. Can't playback 4k at 24fps fuill res (Works with Final Cut) (Tho I mostly use 6k since I have a Dragon)
2. Render an effect takes ages. Mercury with OpenCL is enabled, basically I allocated 30 out 32GB of RAM to the Adobe Suite but nada.
3. Exporting. Ok so right now I am so frustrated that I had to post here while I'm waiting my 3 minute clip to be exported in the next 12 hours.

I mean this is ridiculous.
For the last 3 hours I've been searching online for an answer but I haven't found anything.

Again I am using OpenCL acceleration (Plus exporting with FCP works just fine).

I have noticed that my CPU/GPU are practically IDLE while the rendering is working.

Don't be fooled by those 39.3 fps, I was just lucky when I took the SS, mostly is just 6-12 fps.

Oh and did I mention I am exporting directly from and into my internal SSD?

I hope some generous soul has some kind of answer to this issue, or I will just dump the trashcan for good.


p.s. Additional information on my rendering.

Rendering at 6k, Pro Res 442 HQ, 3 minutes clip and the only particular thing I have in my export is Maximum Quality/Maximum Color Depth. (Yes I need those).

Oh and the clip was modified with Neat Video (But I rendered before export, which took 4 hours) and graded with an LUT (Rendered as well before export).

:hurray:

 

[Piero Sgarbi]

Just for the sake of it, this is the average memory usage/fps of the GPUs.

 

[Chris McKechnie]

I am so not a tech geek, but I'm gonna throw a couple of suggestions out there. You probably have already done this, but here it goes.

make sure your CUDA is up to date - under system pref
make sure CC apps are up to date
trash your premier pro and AME preferences
Copy and paste the timeline you're working in in a brand new project
make sure you export settings aren't tweaked someway, somehow.

Again, so not a computer tech Guy, but try those things if you haven't already

 

[Phil Holland]

Which effects are you using and are they GPU accelerated?

A lot of variables here. Also, read from one disk write to another.

 

[Piero Sgarbi]

I am so not a tech geek, but I'm gonna throw a couple of suggestions out there. You probably have already done this, but here it goes.

make sure your CUDA is up to date - under system pref
make sure CC apps are up to date
trash your premier pro and AME preferences
Copy and paste the timeline you're working in in a brand new project
make sure you export settings aren't tweaked someway, somehow.

Again, so not a computer tech Guy, but try those things if you haven't already

Done all of that... I'm hopeless.

Which effects are you using and are they GPU accelerated?

A lot of variables here. Also, read from one disk write to another.

So I am using Neat Video (And yes you can choose if it's either GPU,
CPU or both accelerated but I set the amount at 50% and rendered the effect before the export.
Besides Neat Video I am just applying a LUT.

Now the problem is, that I can do basically the same thing ,
Color correction + Neat Video on FCPX,
but it won't be so slow and you can actually see the GPU + CPU working a lot.

The problem here is that basically Neat Video in FCPX
doesn't work with CC or LUTs and will just display the raw image.

Lastly the disk is the SSD on the MP so right/read is actually pretty fast,
but when you see the activity monitor there's bare any right/read going on.



Now since I can't live without solving problems I found a way around and basically
I managed to export from Davinci Lite the footage at 6k (That was the whole deal, I am experimenting with Davinci
because I'm considering to switch from Speed Grade but with the Lite version technically you can't export
over 4kUHD).

And then I am basically going to apply Neat Video from FCPX and export again.
(Which is a pain in the back but considering that both Davinci and FCXP export the same file
at Pro Res 4444 in 1 and a half hour compared to the 12 hours of the Pro Res 422 of Premiere,
it's still better).

But yea if anyone has a Mac Pro (Trash Can Version) with similar specs I bet he has not having
a good time like I am.

 

[Phil Holland]

Okay.

So here's a fun test if you have a moment.

Try exporting it without Maximum Quality and Maximum Color Depth enabled. These in particular will add a heck of a lot of time to your render due to the quality gains of the scaling and color depth.

Also, try an export without Neat Video at all through both.

 

[M.Halsell]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...MD-FirePro-D700-amp-PP-CS6-OpenCL-Support-FIX

I would look at and aggressively investigate if AME out of the box is dual GPU enabled. There is some chatter that Premiere CC does not utilize all the VRAM. Xcode has a graphics tools monitor that can report VRAM usage. I would venture to say that Adobe is struggling to implement a solid code base for OpenCL as much of the R&D has been OpenGL intensive. Simply put, more libraries exist for the latter. I would guess to easily offer quick support for AMD devices, Adobe is allowing most the I/O calls to fall back to SW rendering vs hardware, until it gets sorted out. So technically, listed AMD devices will be supported, just not optimized. Basically work in progress.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

Disable maximum quality render (it's a check mark)...you should see your render speed increase tenfold...

 

[Spencer Morris]

^ he shouldn't have to compromise like that though.

I would make a post on the official Adobe Premiere forum about this. Also, the AMD cards don't have CUDA (CUDA is nVidia only), so I'm not sure how limiting that could be. I don't think it's the factor here, but something obviously isn't right. If you want you can send the project files to me and I'll do a test render with your settings to see what happens. spencer@wyldfyre.ca

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Premiere is funny to. I playback 5k and 4k but it always stutterring when playing back a 3k clip. I reported it to adobe and they could replicate it on there machine. This was two years sgo. I bet its still a problem. I have not played back a 3k clip in a year.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

^ he shouldn't have to compromise like that though.

I would make a post on the official Adobe Premiere forum about this. Also, the AMD cards don't have CUDA (CUDA is nVidia only), so I'm not sure how limiting that could be. I don't think it's the factor here, but something obviously isn't right. If you want you can send the project files to me and I'll do a test render with your settings to see what happens. spencer@wyldfyre.ca

He is not really compromising to be honest. Maximum quality is mainly used to improve motion look of frame blending (which I doubt he is using any blending) and mainly for certain scaling function (not including the scale to fit option). When checked while using r3d files it's adding a huge amount of un needed calculations and adds tons of render time. This information came to me directly from Adobe.

 

[Piero Sgarbi]

Ok thank you for your support guys, today I'll be making some tests and later I will share the results here.

I know that maximum quality or neat video can add a lot of calculations, but again, my CPU and GPU are not working (That is my issue).

 

[Elan Gunos]

+1.

As an aside, the only time I ever use maximum quality is for graphic design assets and scaled still imagery, i.e charts, logos, stock photography. It would be great if Premiere was able to give users an option to tag only those clips that need better scaling.

He is not really compromising to be honest. Maximum quality is mainly used to improve motion look of frame blending (which I doubt he is using any blending) and mainly for certain scaling function (not including the scale to fit option). When checked while using r3d files it's adding a huge amount of un needed calculations and adds tons of render time. This information came to me directly from Adobe.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

You are using an AMD card, but premiere is optimized for CUDA with Nvidia cards. I would like to know how the performance is enhanced if you changed to an up to date Nvidia card with at least 4GB Vram.
Especially when you use Neat video you need heavy GPU's. Maybe even using one GPU just for Neat video and the other for playback.

 

[M.Halsell]

You might considering using Luxmark OpenCL benchmark app. Compare the score results to similar hardware configurations, just to rule out any hardware failure. Also, I think Neat Video has some type of built in test or benchmarking.

Its also worth nothing to anyone considering investing in an OpenCL solution on the Mac, all driver support is coming directly from Apple, not AMD. Apple has provided little documentation and development documentation. AMD supports OpenCL on Windows but not Mac. Everything OpenCL related is funneled thru Apple exclusively. Could also explain why Adobe is probably struggling to get the same optimizations that FinalCut is enjoying on the nMP. CUDA is well supported outside of Apple and on both platforms. Even though Apple invented and holds intellectual property rights, there is probably little that can be done to force their hand to provide better support.

So on paper OpenCL performance should be as competitive as CUDA, but without being anchored with a good code library, it makes the GPU average at best.

Apple and Adobe have had some bad blood, you never know how that stuff trickles down. Conspiracy theory I know, but thought I might introduce a little FUD before the NAB games.

 

[Piero Sgarbi]

Ok Guys,

Here are my tests, I tried to be as detailed as possible.

System:
3.5 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E6
32GB 1866 MHz DDR3 ECC
Dual Amd FirePro D700 6144MB
1TB SSD

Note that when I am exporting I am exporting on my local hard drive.



Source files:
.r3d
(75.95 GB on disk)
Duration 00:15:33:23
Frames 22415
Resolution 6144x3160
Frame Rate 23.976
RC 10:1

Export Settings
Export: Pro Res 422 (Resolution Same as Clip
Effects: None (Exporting as it is)

Test 1:
Red Cine - X
ETA: 00:59 Minutes

As you can see CPU usage is at 90% and GPU is average 30FPS with spikes at 44/50.

Test 2:
Adobe Premiere Pro CC (Without using AME)
No Maximum quality or any other option checked. Just using match source.
Using Mercury Playback with OpenCL

ETA: 00:56

CPU usage 87% and GPU is acting weird, mostly on the low 3fps with some random spikes at 38fps. But the ETA is slightly lower than RCX (Weird?).

Test 3
Adobe Premiere Pro CC with AME
No Maximum quality or any other option checked. Just using match source.
Using Mercury Playback with OpenCL

ETA 00:56

Again CPU at 87% and GPU acting weird, really low fps with random high spikes.

Test4:
Final Cut Pro X

ETA: can't tell unless I actually export the whole thing.

As we can see here it's using less resources, but based on the time it went to go to 2% compared to the others
I would say the ETA would be around 01:35:00.



Now for the different settings on Premiere/AME
Based on the fact (some research I did) when you are exporting with Premiere or AME is basically the same thing.



Premiere Pro CC/AME Tests:

Test 1
Maximum Quality Checked.
Color Depth Unchecked.
Effects: None
Match Source.
Using Mercury Playback with OpenCL

ETA:00:56

Usage of GPU and CPU is the same as if we were not using the Maximum Quality Option.
(Same thing as Overall Test 2)


Test 2:
Maximum Quality Checked.
Color Depth Checked. (24 Bit)
Effects: None
Match Source.
Using Mercury Playback with OpenCL

ETA: 03:28:00

Ok so now here we start seeing complete un-usage of the GPU and CPU is used at 29% tops. So this is the first clue.

Apparently this color depth thing is not using at all resources.




So at this point I was like: Ok maybe it's the color depth thing, so I tried to export the original project with Neat Video and the LUT without the Color Depth
But turns out again I am having 0 CPU and GPU usage or at least not like when I'm exporting without any effects.

Then I tweaked some Neat Video features for GPU/CPU usage, used their automatic benchmark option to optimize output (at 8 bit)

Tried to export everything at it was 10 hours instead of the initial 14 (Again color depth was disabled, so that speeded up a bit).

But as you can see the GPU/CPU usage is still iffy, not full 100% so gotta figure out why.



So what I concluded today was:

1. Color Depth option really slows down a lot the process of exporting. Now is it really worth using color depth? And if yes, what should we use? 24 or 48 bit?
2. Neat video seems to interfere with the export somehow on Premiere. Definitely need to test it out more and see what's going on.
3. Apparently for just normal export Premiere, without color Depth enabled seems to be faster even than RedCine or FCX with my setup, but again, do those software render that color depth by default or not?

Later this week I'll see if I improve the neat video aspect.

Meanwhile give me your considerations on color depth.
And definitely we need to understand why color depth bring CPU usage from 90 to 20%.

 

[Piero Sgarbi]

^ he shouldn't have to compromise like that though.

I would make a post on the official Adobe Premiere forum about this. Also, the AMD cards don't have CUDA (CUDA is nVidia only), so I'm not sure how limiting that could be. I don't think it's the factor here, but something obviously isn't right. If you want you can send the project files to me and I'll do a test render with your settings to see what happens. spencer@wyldfyre.ca

So Maximum quality is used whenever you scale.

So on the top left when you choose the option "Change Output Size to Match Source" you dont need to use maximum render quality.

It is included tho in Scale to Fit option, but then again, that is when you are scaling, so if you don't want to scale just choose that option and you are good. And as I tested today, even if you are scaling and using that option, it doesn't change the speed, so that is not the problem.

 

[Piero Sgarbi]

You are using an AMD card, but premiere is optimized for CUDA with Nvidia cards. I would like to know how the performance is enhanced if you changed to an up to date Nvidia card with at least 4GB Vram.
Especially when you use Neat video you need heavy GPU's. Maybe even using one GPU just for Neat video and the other for playback.

So I tried that, and tried to export with Neat Video using GPU only (1 GPU to be precise) and still the CPU usage in the export is below 30%.


There must be some weird thing with Neat Video blocking the CPU.

 

[Piero Sgarbi]

HOT UPDATE:


So I found the best solution so far:

As I just wrote I tried Neat Vide + 1 GPU (No CPU Usage) and it was taking as well tons of hours.

So i was checking my CPU/GPU usage and noticed that Premiere was working along dynamic link basically splitting the JOB.

Now I tried to export with Premiere Only and from 10 hours it went down to 5 hours!!!!





Now the problem is. My CPU is still being used at 30%.

Gotta try to figure that out, I'm sure once I get my CPU to work at 100% everything will speed up smoothly




EDIT:

Nevermind, after I switched windows from here to the export it went back to the 9hrs. Guess I did not fix the problem.

 

[Phil Holland]

Really all you are experiencing is the various performance hits that occur when enabling the different processing options. You'll notice even when you mouse over the feature the tool tip lets you know that things like scaling will "hit" your render times hard.

The variance in the usage depends on the type of calculation and how the software is utilizing resources. Everything you've posted actually look pretty normal to me and isn't exactly "hell". It can be if you want to turn everything on for maximum possible quality however.

The plugin itself isn't "fast" either and that's playing a role here. Though Neat Video is indeed much faster than previous versions.