Post B16 comments here...

[Stuart English]

REDspace v's RAW

REDspace v's RAW

I'd like to second what Chris Kenny said: see RedSpace on monitors, but have histogram, false color and traffic lights relate to sensor data. For me, they are measuring instruments telling me precisely what hits the sensor.

LCD and monitoring should look nice for those standing around too. Just my two cents, but maybe I'm thinking too technical?

There is merit in that concept, but refer back to my comment that we visually live in RGB color space. So yes its a good idea to be able to check on the RAW data from time to time, but as long as the camera has low noise characteristics, we can afford to monitor primarily in RGB (REDspace).

 

[Dj Joofa]

I'd like to second what Chris Kenny said: see RedSpace on monitors, but have histogram, false color and traffic lights relate to sensor data. For me, they are measuring instruments telling me precisely what hits the sensor.

I would tend to think that if you are operating at manufacturer's prescribed color temperature (is it 5000 or 5500) then RGB and sensor raw data values may be pretty close. I.e., implying the transformation matrix between them is closer to unity/identity.

 

[jbeale]

...if you are operating at manufacturer's prescribed color temperature (is it 5000 or 5500) then RGB and sensor raw data values may be pretty close.

That's what I'd expect- but I'm guessing that most people will not expect their clipping limits to change with the color temperature, because very few (any?) cameras currently meter exposure that way. So for most people, I'm guessing that would lead to more exposure errors. For example, when they start off with a 5000 K scene and then the sun starts setting and it is a 3000 K environment or something else.

 

[Jose Alvarez]

Having sat at many telecine transfers and seeing the huge difference between what I shot (the neg) and the first light (or full color correction) of my film footage, I always dreamed I could see exactly how the negative was seeing the light out on the field. Even though I don't have my Red cam yet, I can't believe my dreams are actually coming true!

 

[david farland]

Love the build. Thanks guys.....

I'm also getting a total green screen using a HDlink.

I'll bug you on the monitor 1080p soon.

for now.....beautiful build...lots of clever functional changes.

To all the coders (et al) on this....Absolutely Well Done!!!

D

 

[rglusic]

Can't use SD card to upgrade to B16

Can't use SD card to upgrade to B16

I found out today from Red that the SD card supplied with the camera doesn't work to upgrade to B16. You must have the CF card module and a Red CF card for it to work so I had to order one today. I tryed all different ways to get the SD card to upgrade but no luck. If anyone got there SD card to work I would love to know.

Thanks,
Bob

 

[Thor Wixom]

I found out today from Red that the SD card supplied with the camera doesn't work to upgrade to B16. You must have the CF card module and a Red CF card for it to work so I had to order one today. I tryed all different ways to get the SD card to upgrade but no luck. If anyone got there SD card to work I would love to know.

Thanks,
Bob

Bob,

I didn't have any problems using my SD card to upgrade. I did not use a CF card at all to upgrade my camera to Build 16.

-Thor

 

[ATF]

Hello,

So back to comments related to the build!

Just went upstairs onto the roof and tested things out. All footage shot on the RED Drive. Here are a few things I noticed:

Camera & Lens specs:

REDONE #1614 w/ RED Nikon mount
RED Drive
RED CF Module
RED LCD
Zeiss ZF 100mm Makro-Planar F2
Zeiss ZF 50mm F1.4
Sigma 400mm F
Peleng 8mm fisheye
ND 4 & 8

Software Config:
Build: 14:50:50 June 16, 2008
SW Version: 2008 6_16_01
Targeted IOF: 5_30_0
Current VPF: 5_30_0
Targeted VPF: 6_08_0
Current VPF: 6_08_0

Pin Number: 102-46A-E59
Build 16
Version 3.1.2

Settings:

REDSpace 36
4k 16:9 at 23.98 fps
ASA 320 at 1/48 s
Audio 1 w/ 48v Active

Boot time w/ RED Drive: 01:25:30
Boot time w/ CF Card: 01:23:00

1. Camera will not boot with either RED CF Card reliably. The camera sits for 01:55:00 minutes at nothing but "booting" and then shuts itself off. The main LCD never activates, but flickers briefly. The rear LCD turns on again after it reboots and the initial result continues. The fan activates at 01:45:00 before the camera shuts off at 01:55:00. If I wait around 30 seconds and try to reboot again, sometimes it will boot with the CF card and sometimes not. When the camera finally comes to, it lists "SLOW MEDIA". Obviously this is related to the REDSpace 36 not working with the 8 gigabyte CF cards. Therefore, I set the camera to REDSpace 28, shut down and tried to reboot and it still would not boot. I switched it on and off twice before it booted on the third try. Note: It seems that it is now working better after I reformatted both of the CF Cards under B16 with REDSpace set to 28 instead of 36.

2. Peleng 8mm: When panning the camera past a series of bright rear-lit clouds, the camera stopped recording and reported "Rocketio fault". After it stopped and I hit Record again, it stopped the camera again and listed "Audio fault". When I turned the camera away and waited for thirty seconds, it no longer displayed those recording errors. This did not happen with the other lenses listed when doing pans by brightly lit clouds.

3. Audio: The 48v selection in Audio does not retain it's setting to "on" after you power down the camera and reboot.

4. Sigma 400mm & Zeiss ZF 100mm: Vertical streaks on the LCD with the Sigma and Zeiss when focusing on anything tall and rectangular. For example: I was shooting some footage of the Empire State Building with the Sigma 400mm and noticed some hard streaks on the LCD when concentrating on the spire. It was also prevalent with the other lenses, but not as noticeable. I have _not_ examined the footage yet, so this could be a LCD related issue only. EDIT: Looks like it was only in the LCD (whew).

5. The battery warning time for shutting down because of a low battery needs to be recalculated. When it warned me that I had a low battery and had 28 seconds to stop recording and shut down, the entire camera powered off at 24 seconds before I could stop recording and shut down.

6. The batteries seem to go very quickly. I'll need to order two more to compliment the two I have already.

More to follow.

Thanks,

ATF

 

[ChristopherKenworthy]

2K DPX Error

2K DPX Error

Not sure if this is the fault of Build 16 or Red Alert, but exporting a 2K DPX always gives me a garbled image. See attached. This doesn't happen with 4K DPX. I'm using the latest Glue Tools. (Forgive me for just shooting the wall in my office - I know that's a waste of Red, but I was just testing...)

 

[Evin Grant]

My B16 observations so far...

My B16 observations so far...

I've had a little (stress little) time to play and test B15 Vs. B16 and here are my observations so far, as well as a few questions...

Firstly, I really like the new noise/grain structure, much more organic even at 800 ISO. Red space seems like a nice tool for shooting but I'm having a hard time getting a highlight to roll off nicely in RA. Rec709 or a custom curve over linear seem to do a better job (Example below).
Secondly I tested Build 15 Vs. 16 with and without Noise reduction on and I'm having a hard time telling the difference. (See below) It appears that build 16 is applying a certain amount of NR as a default regardless of your settings in Red Alert (I've yet to compare them in motion though).
Thirdly, other than a drop in noise because of the seeming NR (And a subsequent boost in useable ISO) I have not noticed any DR increase. Apples to apples the B16 scene was not any better in highlight retention or shadow detail. The good news is this seems to have no negative effect on detail. If any of the Red team is reading this please tell me what I might be doing wrong.

Highlight Sample...

I haven't tried to create a camera curve yet but the one above based loosely on the Panalog (Shudder) will be my next attempt. I'm not sure if a curve loaded into the camera can be applied directly to the RAW view though.
Stuart? Jim?

Tungsten light Blue Channel NR comparison...

I'll post the DPXs from the above comparison in a little bit.

 

[jbeale]

Looking at the blue channel crops, the edge of the shadow of the glass canning jar (?) looks better (cleaner) in B16 to me, than the NR version of B15. Otherwise they look similar to me.

 

[cinepost35]

Can you add anymore Noise reduction to the B16 sample ? Does it get even cleaner?

 

[Jannard]

1st off... you have NR set in RED Alert! If NR is set to off in RA!, then there is no NR. None. If you have set "some" in RA! and don't see a difference, that is a bug.

You can certainly match up the spaces (Linear, REDlog, RDspace, REC 709, etc.) pretty well if you want to. Most people don't want to so we have made it easy.

There is a new space coming courtesy of Graeme and Deanan called REDflex. It does an incredible job of rolling off the highlights, among other things.

For my tests, I haven't stressed the image this much to do a comparison. I'll do that this weekend before I comment.

One of the key things you are missing in comparing Build 15 to B16 is the compression change. Shoot both in high detail, high contrast situations. There is a huge difference. Plus, the dreaded "codec error" is all but a thing of the past.

Build 16 is "monumental" for many reasons, including the number of improvements and added features. If you are stuck on the fact that we haven't delivered 2 extra stops of DNR, we have failed. Where we have delivered more is in the combination of less/beter quality noise and more detail in the shadows of high detailed scenes. And less need for NR. Since the floor is certainly more useable, it has more latitude. I guess until we set down a specific definition for both of those terms, we will just use them casually to describe more useful on either/both ends of the spectrum. Build 16 does just that. How much depends on the conditions. So far, what we have seen and heard from most everyone is that the image (most important part of this program) is significantly better. That was goal one.

Jim

 

[tobzila]

codec fault

codec fault

We just did the upgrade with build 16th today and tested the camera all day long. At the end of the day the camera started to say CODEC FAULT while recording. We were shooting at 4K16/9 redcode 28, recording on CF, we tried with the drive and it didn't solve the problem. The camera was very hot and it happened in every format we tried: 3K or 4K 16/9 or 2:1.
It happened the very first time while we were using a 18mm lens at t.4. We change the lens for a 50mm and the problem was resovled for 2 minutes of recording. after 2 minutes it happened again.
Do you think it can be because of the build, the heat or something else?
Thank you

 

[Evin Grant]

Can you add anymore Noise reduction to the B16 sample ? Does it get even cleaner?

Here is a sample, it does seem to clean up the image more but at the expense of a very small amount of detail. I'll reserve judgment till I can see how ell it does in motion.

 

[cinepost35]

One of the key things you are missing in comparing Build 15 to B16 is the compression change. Shoot both in high detail, high contrast situations. There is a huge difference. Plus, the dreaded "codec error" is all but a thing of the past.

Jim

Jim Build 16 is absolutley magic.....Since I haven't had a chance to see it projected for myself yet. How would you best describe the compresion change between B15 and B16 to your eye when projected in 4k?

Do all the improvements help the 4K projected image it seems like that is really where it should shine the most?

Thanks!

 

[Damon Meledones]

Sometimes its useful to know when working in REDspace that when the traffic lights are blinking on, you can flip over to view RAW to see if there is headroom in the RAW recording that you can exploit in post to correct for the RGB domain visual clipping.

Stuart, if it's at all technically possible with the camera's processing power, having a "two stage" traffic light would be a wonderful way to check headroom in these situations with a quick glance, without having to switch over to RAW. What I mean by two stage, or dual state, is this: when a channel clips in the current working color space, a partial symbol is displayed in the traffic light (e.g. a half circle, or a circle with a black dot in the center), however, when that channel is also clipping in the RAW recording, the full symbol is displayed (e.g. a solid circle).

When the RAW starts clipping you'd still probably want to switch to RAW view and have a look at just how badly. But anytime RESspace is clipping and RAW isn't, you could keep shooting without having to stop and check, confident that all of your highlights will be recoverable in post should you need them. Does that seem feasible for a future release? I've been dreaming of such a function ever since my first RED shoot.

 

[Jarred Land]

Stuart, if it's at all technically possible with the camera's processing power, having a "two stage" traffic light would be a wonderful way to check headroom in these situations with a quick glance

This is something we discussed in mid-16 development. Unfortunately, there are a few complications that made it alot harder to implement then it first seemed.

We are still looking for a way to do it

 

[tobzila]

Any ideas about this CODEC FAULT warning we just experienced?

 

[Damon Meledones]

We are still looking for a way to do it

Music to my ears, Jarred! :w00t: