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Poor Man's Fujinon 19-90mm T2.9? Photo-lens alternatives

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Chris Lawes

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Hey everyone,

The Story:
So reading about the Fujinon ZK4.7x19 19-90mm T2.9 Cabrio lens being used on Anthony Bordain's Parts Unknown and looking so perfect for the Run N' Gun shooters using large sensor cameras like RED, I thought to myself "I've finally found the lens I need for do-it-all documentary shooting!"I proceeded to call up Abelcine to order 2 or 3 of them and then found out the price, $38,000 each. Well unfortunately I had just spent about $200K on a new 2013 Lamborghini Gallardo (couldn't resist) and the wife won't let me splurge again for a couple months atleast... so I figured I should look for some cheaper alternatives :biggrin:

Seriously though, that Fujinon 19-90 is perfect for docu shooting and leave-it-on-all-day shooting, lightweight (4.85 lb , fast, wide-to-portrait, excellent IQ, it shows that it CAN be done.) $38k is a fair price, but in the meantime what is out there as a poor man's alternative? (Poor man meaning... under $10k?)

The Goal:
Zoom lens, roughly 19-90, roughly f/4 or below, super35mm coverage atleast, resolves 4k rez, Price under $10k. Ideally under 6lbs and cine focus direction!

Here are some options:

- Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC Macro (OS) (1.02 LB) $500 LINK : My favorite option so far. Pretty fast, light, stabilization, good IQ, and combined with a Novoflex EOS/NIK adapter you get a manual iris ring. Cons are overall quality and lens extending when zoomed. Especially interesting if it could be cinemodded like the Sigma 18-35 f/1.8? UPDATE: Apparently currently has issues with OS and RED.

- Pentax smc DA 17-70mm $600: LINK Pretty cool, consistent aperture. 'Wrong' focus/zoom direction :/

- Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM Lens $700 LINK : A decent option for run-n-gun cover everything. Not very fast, but you can crank up ISO when you have to... I'm more bothered by lack of any manual iris ring option.

- Nikon 24-120 F/4.0 WITH a larger sensor Epic Dragon (making the equivilent speed/range closer to a Fuji 19-90 on super35.) Manual iris ring, good range, good IQ, not parfocal, breathing, normal photo lens issues. Must have an Epic! (I use a Scarlet personally ;)

- Abelcine or MTF Services B4 2/3″ to super35mm adapter with a 2/3 Cine or ENG lens: Theoretically an interesting option, but can get expensive + large, and will it really resolve a nice 4k image after a doubler+adapter+prism conversion+etc? This could be combined with something like a Zeiss 10-100 and get a nice range+speed, or one of the wider HA ENG zooms.

- Red Pro Zoom 18-85 T2.9 (9.9 lb) $9,975 LINK : Great lens, checks all the boxes except weight. 10LB is a bit much for all day shoulder shooting... and the price is slightly pushing it. Definitely one of the best options out there though.

- Lomo 35OPF18-1A zoom lens 20-120mm/F2,5 Used $4-8k?

- Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM Lens $700 LINK : Slow, but an option.

- Sony 16-80mm f/3.5-4.5 Carl Zeiss LINK $1000 : Really like this lens, I don't know if it has IS. It's Sony Alpha mount though :(

Not good enough:

- Cooke 18-100 ~Big, heavy, soft, etc...

- Cooke 20-100 ~ 11.5 LB soft?

- Angenieux Optimo 17-80mm T2.2 Zoom : Over price and weight. (12lb, $60k)

- Optimo DP 16-42mm T2.8 (4.2 lbs) : Good weight, over price and not long enough.

- Angenieux 17-102mm T2.6 : Very long physically. Good range, over price, weight is apparently 19LB (yikes)? Rare lens I guess.

- Canon 24-105mm f4L lens + Speedbooster: (1.47 lb) $1,100 COMBINED WITH Metabones Speedbooster creates: A 17-72 f/2.8 lens! Perfect! Except.. how would you control iris? Certainly not with a manual ring :( UPDATE: Reported that there is no Speedbooster compatible with Red cameras?

- Nikon 28-300mm + Speedbooster: (1.76 lb) $960 w/ speedbooster, manual iris (becomes 19.9-213mm f/2.5-4! ). Wrong focus/zoom direction, will it cover Scarlet sensor without vignetting? UPDATE: Reported that there is no Speedbooster compatible with Red cameras?

- Sony 18-252mm SCL-Z18X140 Variable f/3.9-f/6.8 Aperture, lightweight (4.9 lb) $10k - Great option, little slow (don't know how fast you lose speed throughout range) but Sony only (F3/F5/etc.)

- Hunger strike outside Fujinon factory until somebody gives me a 19-90 Cabrio

Update 08/19/13:
----------
Let me also clarify my personal thinking on this lens search. At this point, the only lens that really will do what I want perfectly (single lens, docu-style, decent speed shooting) IS the Fuji 19-90, so I am intending on renting it sometimes and buying it once I have enough money.
For sit-down interviews and b-roll, I intend on using good primes (Zeiss CP/Rokinon if cheap).
It's only for projects where I need to follow living people through unpredictable circumstances and don't have the money to rent a Cabrio that I need this mystery lens. Shooting conversations, walking tours, smash-n-grab moving b-roll, you know "Parts Unknown" style stuff. Whenever I have time to slow down and change lenses leisurely then I'll switch over the primes.
So far the best option I think is the Sigma 17-70 2.8-4.0, if shooting 4K means you can punch in a little bit in post if you need to (easier problem to solve than "make that shot wider :D") So… Sigma 17-70 with iris ring adapter for running around, budget-ish primes for shooting with controlled circumstances, and…. save the rest of lens budget towards renting/buying a Fuji 19-90 is where I'm at right now. If the Sigma OS is broken with adapters that's a real bummer, and leaves me with the Canon 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6.
 
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The Tamron 24-70 VC might be worth a look. Image quality is superb across the frame on a crop sensor, and it's about half the price of the Canon equivalent. My only gripes are that its flares are rainbowy (although flaring is generally well controlled) and that the only one of its electronic features fully working on the electronic Nikon mount is iris control.
 
Why would you use a 24-105 f4 with a speedbooster, instead of the 24-70 2.8 as it comes?

For 2300 dollars, it covers the sensor, is very sharp, within your price range, and very fast.
 
24 is just not wide enough. But the 24-105 is a really nice lens. Decent sharp, good range, and f4 is ok

i think canon should release a 18-135 f2.8, a little bit more than aps-c coverage, no internal motors, IS or aperture, all manual for around $10000.
now that would be awesome :)
 
25 rental days of the Cabrio from Curt. But other then that I don't know of many lenses that cover 4k with 19-90 and that are under 10k.

I think a few people on RedUser would like to know.

P.S they make a 85-300mm Cabrio ;) You may want to sell that car :)
 
Nice comparison of lightweight cine zooms embed below. Shows why the 19-90 focal range is really useful / almost necessary for docu work (going from a group shot of three guys talking around a burrito stand to individual facial close-ups and back out constantly as a conversation is going on for instance, all while not being so in people's faces that they feel uncomfortable.)

- "The RED 17-50mm T2.9" : Great lens indeed, and my backup option but it really doesn't get long enough (see above)

- "Fuji Alura 18-80 for 26k; Canon 30-105 for 20K, Zeiss Compact 28-80 for under 20K" : 18-80 is a good option, but still pricey and over 10lb. The other two are not wide enough IMO.

- "The Tamron 24-70 VC" : Not wide enough.

Max M. said:
24 is just not wide enough. But the 24-105 is a really nice lens. Decent sharp, good range, and f4 is ok
i think canon should release a 18-135 f2.8, a little bit more than aps-c coverage, no internal motors, IS or aperture, all manual for around $10000.
now that would be awesome :)
Click to expand...

Yes! You just get me Max, we should be friends:emote_happyhappy:

There's a great article by Timur Civan about the Fuji 19-90 HERE, and in it he says:
"He heard from the horses mouth that the 18-85 "...is sharper than Master primes". Miranda only shoots on the Fujinons as of late. He DPed the Tom Cruise film, Oblivion, Shot on F65 and Fujinon Premiere Zooms. I saw this film and it looks astonishing. This is a big deal. Fujinon in only a couple of years in the PL market, has potentially bested some of the finest primes ever made... with a ZOOM!"

Then goes on to say about the 19-90 specifcally:
"What the cabrio is doing, is giving you practically everything. Optical performance, range, light weight, professional features, and a reasonable Tstop to work with..."

So I wonder if Canon/Zeiss/Angenieux/etc companies are concerned about cannibalizing sales of prime kits and short range zooms, I'm sure there's plenty of DP's out there with a couple of high-priced zooms and a whole kit of primes, if you could replace 90% of that with one do-it-all lens, and just stretch it for your needs, that might become an issue. Just a thought. I wish that Sigma/Rokinon/Tokina would try to jump in and make a 18-100 APS-C f/4 or f/2.8 lens with a manual iris ring for $4-8k.
 
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If 24mm isn't wide enough for you, the combination you're looking for pretty much doesn't exist in a single lens without going into the 5-digit price range. The Sigma 17-70 or Canon 24-120 with speedboster might pan out, although I suspect they vignette at 5K/6K on the wide end.
 
Chris Lawes said:
Yes, Sigma's 17-70 f/2.8-4.0 is actually my first pick right now, combined with an adapter that gives manual iris control. Hope the OS works!
Click to expand...
I tried that Lens today, switch on optical stabilization and the focus no longer works and neither does the stabilization.
 
I must tell you... I own BOTH of the Fuji Cabrios... I LOVE THEM! The basis of my work has been "docu-style" for quite some time. The 19-90 is a great run and gun lens. The 85-300 has become my GO TO interview lens. If you're interested... I would be willing to rent you a Cabrio. Brett Ogden is right. I do rent to owner/operators. I have custom cases made by Omega Cases in Burbank. Once you try these lenses, you're hooked! They really are terrific!

I looked for 18 months to solve my needs, and this was the lens that did it! I know that close to 40G's is expensive, but it is WELL WORTH IT!
 
Les Dittert said:
I tried that Lens today, switch on optical stabilization and the focus no longer works and neither does the stabilization.
Click to expand...

Bummer. I hope that gets worked out eventually.
 
Chris,

Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM Lens!!!!

The variable aperture is a bummer and focusing is not precise like a cine lens of course but the IQ and range are phenomenal, and it's also very lightweight!

I'd say this and a canon 24-70 2.8 (even mk1) would be a very good combo!!!
 
RESPONSES:
Alan Peterson said:
If 24mm isn't wide enough for you, the combination you're looking for pretty much doesn't exist in a single lens without going into the 5-digit price range. The Sigma 17-70 or Canon 24-120 with speedboster might pan out, although I suspect they vignette at 5K/6K on the wide end.
Click to expand...
Looks that way! Other options like 18-200 superzooms or a 2/3 B4 lens adapted exist but are not ideal. It's a tough one for sure :/
Les Dittert said:
I tried that Lens today, switch on optical stabilization and the focus no longer works and neither does the stabilization.
Click to expand...
That really is a bummer, as it's looking like the only cheap-ish option right now :( Hopefully something will change with firmware…?
Curt Pair said:
I must tell you... I own BOTH of the Fuji Cabrios... I LOVE THEM! The basis of my work has been "docu-style" for quite some time. The 19-90 is a great run and gun lens. The 85-300 has become my GO TO interview lens. If you're interested... I would be willing to rent you a Cabrio.
I looked for 18 months to solve my needs, and this was the lens that did it! I know that close to 40G's is expensive, but it is WELL WORTH IT!
Click to expand...
Thanks Curt, and let me clarify, I certainly DO intend on renting the 19-90 Cabrio whenever I can justify it, and I also certainly AM trying to save up for it!! :) In the meanwhile, I need to own a lens that I can get by with for really longterm camp-with-the-subject-shoots or lower budget 3-camera shoots. I'll hit you up though for rentals ;)
Tommaso Alvisi said:
Chris, Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM Lens!!!!
The variable aperture is a bummer and focusing is not precise like a cine lens of course but the IQ and range are phenomenal, and it's also very lightweight!
I'd say this and a canon 24-70 2.8 (even mk1) would be a very good combo!!!
Click to expand...
Thanks Tommaso! This is a very nice option I wasn't aware of, and a good one if the Sigma doesn't pan out. Granted it is pretty slow and I hate not being able to ride an iris ring sooo much but it's a lens I hadn't heard of that should definitely go on the list!
Jesper Sichlau said:
I'm pretty sure [Metabones] doesn't work on a eos canon mount.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that you can't do EF-to-EF. But that doesn't mean you can't have a RED with a non-canon mount and do EF-to-Nikon.

THOUGHTS:
----------------

Let me also clarify my personal thinking on this lens search. At this point, the only lens that really will do what I want perfectly (single lens, docu-style, decent speed shooting) IS the Fuji 19-90, so I am intending on renting it sometimes and buying it once I have enough money.

MEANWHILE For sit-down interviews and b-roll, I intend on using good primes (Zeiss CP/Rokinon if cheap).
It's only for projects where I need to follow living people through unpredictable circumstances and don't have the money to rent a Cabrio that I need this mystery lens. Shooting conversations, walking tours, smash-n-grab moving b-roll, you know "Parts Unknown" docu-style stuff. Whenever I have time to slow down and change lenses leisurely then I'll switch over the primes.

So far the best option I think is the Sigma 17-70 2.8-4.0, shooting 4K means you can punch in a little bit in post if you need to (easier problem to solve than "make that shot wider :D") So… Sigma 17-70 with iris ring adapter for running around, budget-ish primes for shooting with controlled circumstances, and…. save the rest of lens budget towards renting/buying a Fuji 19-90. That's where I'm at right now. If the Sigma OS is broken that's a real bummer, and leaves me with the Canon 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6.


Of course the 2/3" cinelens with B4 to PL adapter is still attractive in theory, but I don't know how good it will really look on 4K in practice.
Been great to get everyone's input so far!
 
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