Politics, religion: was 2008 Elections...? - enter at your own risk

[Russ McDonald]

Balkans.

The sectarian violence in Iraq, which is way down now, doesn't evan come close to the massed armies, that participated in that conflict. The Kurds in the north, and the Shi'a in the south could have pulled the country apart if they wanted to, especially the Kurds... This has not happened.

Articles 41,42 and to some degree 51 of the UN Charter. (51 is tricky though because it's an exception to rules 41 and 42 therefore... by breaking 41 and 42 without it being within the exceptions of 51 you're sort of violating section 51, but only in not using it.)

Apparently the constitution agrees with my view that the US should respect the rule of law. I would refer you to Article Six of the constitution for more clarity on the subject.

The United States of America has never abdicated it's sovereignty to any Nation of world body. Not one siting member of the UN has been elected by me or anyone one else anywhere. The reason 51 is in place is because the UN is incapable of providing meaningful security anywhere, Rwanda leaps to mind.

I mean beyond some PR moves he had no ideological connection to terrorists. In no way beyond PR benefited from terrorist activities. And did not orchestrate terrorists attacks against the US.

I'm sure he met with them in an effort to protect his own interests and ensure he could control his country. Just as he did with Donald Rumsfield, Cheney and other US dignitaries.

You need to get you facts straight, start here I'm not a Weakly Standard sycophant, nor am I a The Nation sycophant, but I read them... As of this point I have yet found any credible evidence that refutes the Weekly Standard on this issue. I'm always looking and open to new information.

The war on terror is an excuse to do whatever it is they want to do that day. Terrorism is a movement. A movement which needs to be stripped of its efficacy but will never be destroyed. Hence "War" is a poor term since a war implies a potential for victory. The criminal prosecution of international criminals would be a better description, but it's less exciting of a headline and doesn't grant the government it's much desired powers to fuck over the constitution like the word War gives

.

This war brought the brutality of terrorism done in the name of Islam all over the world, to front door of the muslims... When they began to be the targets of the radical muslims in there mitts, the efficacy you speak off got stripped pretty quick, as is evident by the conditions in Anbar province.

Anywhere anytime? 301,139,947 give or take a few thousand. Perhaps we should invade Spain tommorow because there are terrorists there too? Besides... that's off topic. Invading Iraq wasn't to prevent terrorists attacks. It's a red herring. Afghanistan on the other hand was a legitimate target since it was a war against a government which attacked us. Iraq didn't attack us, had no plans to attack us and didn't have the means to attack us.

It is far from off topic, it is the central principle of the conflict. Your answer is why I'm glad your a filmmaker, and not the president of the United States.

Spain does not train terrorist, it does not fund terrorist, it does not provide material support to terrorist, and it does not harbor terrorist in fact they hunt them down...

It is naive to think that Sadam would have stood on the sidelines as America invaded Afghanistan, the truth is he didn't.

Iraq constantly attacked Aircraft in the no fly zone established when they excepted the terms of the cease fire after the Gulf War, to say they did not have plans to attack America or American interest, is a statement of opinion not fact.

As far as means are concerned, the UN was convinced in 1991 that they had destroyed all of Iraq's WMD and its capacity to make more. Until Sadam's brother in-law defected to Jordan and we found out that that was not true, evan after that hidden stock pile was destroyed, Sadam still couldn't account for tons of more agents and chemicals.

I would say that because I believe that. I believed that because eventually he would be overthrown but not before a lot of innocent people would die in the process and in the end we would have no influence in who those people were (probably sympathetic to Iran and probably fundamentalists.) History tells us that the victor is often the most savage adversary and not necessarily the party most interested in the public's well being.

I believe Kim Jung Ill should be executed as well, however I can't see any military action that would result in a desireable outcome. Therefore I would be opposed to a war with North Korea as well.

That may be the case through history, but it's not the really the American policy of the last century, and I can say it is certainly not the case in this conflict.

Well the problem with UN mandates is they usually don't have one. They almost always 'rebuild' under the ospices of the existing government. Iraq--like Germany and Japan are cases where at the end of the war there was no government. A very unusual circumstance. That being said I guess I put my single vote into El Salvador and ONUSAL's involvement in ending a long standing civil war and stabilizing the political process. While not a slam dunk --given the limitations of their mandate--quite impressive.

So were does Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Dafur, Burma, and anyone of a thousand places that the UN has paid Lip service to, but has done nothing else, fit in...

Any organization that would stay behind a wall fully armed and capable of action, as Tens of Thousands are slaughtered literally a hundred feet away, will never be trusted by me with security and the safety of my children, my wife, or my Nation that includes you my friend.

 

[Joel Kaye]

There have been and still are many theories of conspiracy. For instance the idea of a world wide jewish plot. That led to the holocaust. One has to very careful with ideas like this.

I think when the conspiracy theory dicates that we need to start a war need to kill millions of people then we REALLY have to be careful (Bush/Bin Laden/9-11).

If the conspiracy theory says there are a handful of people trying to trick us into wars of convenience and giving up our individual rights and liberties and taking the RFID chip and we should fight those things then that's probably a theory that isn't quite as dangerous.

The interesting dichotomy for Christians is the RFID chip. Most of them know of the mark of the beast prophesies so I'll be surprised if they support anything to do with that... HOWEVER, it's going to the same people who managed to sell Iraq that will be selling the RFID chip. That'll be interesting to watch.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

That said, I do agree that Gulf War I was a masterful stroke, but just like WW I was ended too soon and begat WW II, so did GW I beget GW II (wow, just realized that those initials meant that it was pre-ordained that W. would return to the desert:wink: )

Hi number6,

I am just curious. Why do you recon ended WW1 too early, or in other words why do you think that a longer WW1 would have not induced WW2 or why WW2 was an inevitable consequence of WW1?

Comparing gulf war 1 and 2 with WW1 and WW2 is brave, IMHO.

Hans

 

[Russ McDonald]

And while you are at it, could some one please show me irrefutable evidence that the earth is round and not a flat disc floating through space.

Here you go, aint she pretty they have picture from all around too.

 

[Johnny St.Ours]

"He just said there's gonna be an event and out of that event we're gonna invade Afghanistan so we can run pipelines through the Caspian sea, "


In the spring or summer of 2001, there was a Wall Street Journal front page headline reading "Oil Companies Struggle to Spend Huge Hordes of Cash"

I saved the paper, and joked with a friend of mine about it- poor oil companies! The article below the headline was about how they try and spend their "hordes" on finding new reserves, or building expensive off shore rigs, but they always end up making all that damn money back and then some. They wanted some new territory.

Another article that had appeared in National Geographic earlier that year was all about the rusting rigs in the Caspian Sea, and how a lot of people wanted to get access to those things and fix 'em up, but the business folk of Azerbeijan had already prepared for that, and were planning to make a lot of money on the pipelines. After I laughed about the headline in the Journal, I told me friend they'd probably really like to go to the Caspian Sea.

Then two months later we're bombing Afghanistan. What's there? Poppies... and land. Pipeline land.

In September, 2001, when Bush was talking "yea, tho I walk thru the valley of death" and "Operation Infinite Justice" (which is really the realm of God- if you buy that), and pointing a finger at Afghanistan, I found myself writing a song called Caspian Sea. It all seemed quite obvious to me, and very frightening.

Sorry for the rambling, every once in a while I check this thread, and reading the stuff about Russo reminded me of a time when I felt very alone among my countrymen. Glad to have some company. I don't smoke crack, for the record.

BTW, back to the subject of the post, my personal forecast of the elections, and I alluded to it way back in this thread, is that it's nearly a moot point. "an event" will probably happen that allows GW to extend his time in office for 180 days, while liberals and conservatives argue and make concessions to one another, and then he and the gang will just stay there at the throne. All this anti-terror rule building and infrastructure is centralizing power to the point where somebody can easily seize the jackpot. Fear-mongering, and incidents in Iranian waters are just another part of the recipe. And why is Cheney so quiet? An illegal takeover by a legally elected official with about a 30% approval rating is a lot like what happened in Germany, is that correct Hans?

Our best hope is Hilary winning the democratic nomination, cause no country will ever vote her to president, so the republicans may be content with McCain or whatever. If Obama gets close, he'll have my vote, and a lot of others, and that's when we be in trouble.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I think when the conspiracy theory dicates that we need to start a war need to kill millions of people then we REALLY have to be careful (Bush/Bin Laden/9-11).

If the conspiracy theory says there are a handful of people trying to trick us into wars of convenience and giving up our individual rights and liberties and taking the RFID chip and we should fight those things then that's probably a theory that isn't quite as dangerous.

The interesting dichotomy for Christians is the RFID chip. Most of them know of the mark of the beast prophesies so I'll be surprised if they support anything to do with that... HOWEVER, it's going to the same people who managed to sell Iraq that will be selling the RFID chip. That'll be interesting to watch.

I agreed mostly.

But it's better to have clear evidence and facts than a conspirancy theory that fills gaps in an amittedly unlovely matter. Conspirancy theories can make good thoughts and hard facts vulnerable and even evidence rediculous. The military industrial complex loves conspirancy theories. The more the better. Disknowledge is a powerful tool. I suppose most conspirancy theories were created and spread by the target itself, another conspirancy theory...

Hans

 

[Joel Kaye]

But it's better to have clear evidence and facts

I agree with that, but usually you have the theory before you decide to investigate and get clear evidence and facts. Hopefully the theory provokes an investigation so the truth can be determined. Right now Bush needs to be investigated. That probably won't happen in America because the system is so corrupted we can't really investigate giant conspiracy theories. Theoretically it's corrupted, I mean. ;-)

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

"An illegal takeover by a legally elected official with about a 30% approval rating is a lot like what happened in Germany, is that correct Hans?

I'm not a historian.

In the early 30ies Germany suffered from a bad recession (great depression) and high unimployment. The constitution of the Weimarer Republik was legally weak and the president von Hindenburg who was an former general-feldmarschall, a conservative hardliner and German patriot had a view on the parlament that was in bismarckian tradition derogative.

1932 chancellor von Papen (Center Party) who did not get elected but got deployed by Von Hindenburg formed a coalition with the Nazis to manage the social and economical crisis. In this time the NSDAP got 37% percent of the votes. Hitler became chancellor in this coalition and Von Papen thought it would be easy to control Hitler. Von Hindenburg as president accepted this deal and the rest is history...

Von Papen, Von Hindenburg and Von Schleicher were all Barons and had hardly any support by the German people. But Hitler had... Theres was a election poster showing Hitler and Von Hindenburg, the copy was: Der Gefreite und der Feldmaschall - The Private and the General. People like privates and hate generals....

1. Gemany had no democratic tradition

2. Germany as a nation was in 1933 just 60 years old.

3. There has been an unfortunate WW1 that created a lot of rensentiments towards the France and England. A culture medium for nationalism.

4. The strong personality of Adolf Hitler

5. Prussian was a law and order society and in these times mentally pretty alive. People were not really used to their freedom and does freedeom feed the starving?

I find it pretty different to that what I see overseas in North America. Please prove me wrong

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I agree with that, but usually you have the theory before you decide to investigate and get clear evidence and facts. Hopefully the theory provokes an investigation so the truth can be determined. Right now Bush needs to be investigated. That probably won't happen in America because the system is so corrupted we can't really investigate giant conspiracy theories. Theoretically it's corrupted, I mean. ;-)

Again a gordian knot...

Hans

 

[Joe Carney]

I find this thread very interesting!

Adobeone,

the Nazi regime is (hopefully) a solitary occurrence and hardly to be compared to anything like we acounter today.

1. Before Hitler, Germany has been one of the most impulsive countries world wide, almost in any respect - literature, fine arts, science, etc... One of the leading nations in something we nowadays call the reasonable western world.

2. The US did not win the war, it were the allied US, UK, Russia and France.

3. There was no real need to break the will of the German people since many of them were not Nazi, not neccesarily innocent but some sort of victims. For sure there was the need of breaking the military power.

4. Facism is not a religion, it's an attitude. Facists feel them self superior to others. The holocaust (it's only a word, one should say the worst, most unbelivable genozide in history) is the result of this kind of attitude.

5. After the war Germany has been easily integrated in the western world. Philosophers like Kant and Hegel, scientist like Einstein and Max Planck, inventers like Carl Benz and Otto Lilienthal and last but not least composers like Beethoven and Bach had and still have huge influence into what we all call the western culture. No clash of culture... on the contrary.

None of the obove mentioned points apply to the Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia...

Hans

Hans I agree that Germany has come a looooong way from the Nazi era and should no longer be talked about in that way... unfortunately Hollywood makes too much money promoting that negative stereotype.

But the Baathist party controlling Iraq was sponsered by and modeled after the Hitler era Nazi party. Husseins' family helped setup Nazi sympathizer groups in the Muslim areas of the Balkans, which lead to the terrible genocide in post communist Yugoslavia (revenge for WWII atrocities). Hitlers' terrible legacy reached far beyond the war.

 

[Russ McDonald]

Hans I agree that Germany has come a looooong way from the Nazi era and should no longer be talked about in that way... unfortunately Hollywood makes too much money promoting that negative stereotype.

But the Baathist party controlling Iraq was sponsered by and modeled after the Hitler era Nazi party. Husseins' family helped setup Nazi sympathizer groups in the Muslim areas of the Balkans, which lead to the terrible genocide in post communist Yugoslavia (revenge for WWII atrocities). Hitlers' terrible legacy reached far beyond the war.

You get a gold star, for looking deeper.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hans I agree that Germany has come a looooong way from the Nazi era and should no longer be talked about in that way... unfortunately Hollywood makes too much money promoting that negative stereotype.

It's interesting that most German films that got awarded by the US Acadamy had Nazi Germany as the main setting: Das Boot and Nirgendwo In Afrika. Das Leben Der Anderen was set in East Germany and had the Stasi as the main topic. Seems the world likes Germany for its totaliterian history. But then, the hell is the most interesting, only readable part in Dantes Devine Comedy...

Right now Hollywood is producing a big picture shot in Berlin with Tom Cruise as Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg who played together with General Oberst Beck a Key role in the faild plot against Hitler of the 20th of July 1944. This film is of particular interest in the endless series of hollywood Nazi-Gemany films because of the fact that it tries to shed light on the German restistance in these dark times. In the end the audience that sees this films (and many will see it just to see Tom Cruise) will learn that not every German was necessarily a nazi. I like hollywood (for that).

Hans

 

[Russ McDonald]

BTW, back to the subject of the post, my personal forecast of the elections, and I alluded to it way back in this thread, is that it's nearly a moot point. "an event" will probably happen that allows GW to extend his time in office for 180 days, while liberals and conservatives argue and make concessions to one another, and then he and the gang will just stay there at the throne. All this anti-terror rule building and infrastructure is centralizing power to the point where somebody can easily seize the jackpot. Fear-mongering, and incidents in Iranian waters are just another part of the recipe. And why is Cheney so quiet? An illegal takeover by a legally elected official with about a 30% approval rating is a lot like what happened in Germany, is that correct Hans?

.

Wow!

Senator Clinton is a polarizing figure in American Politics, the results of the election will be clear.

Bush and company are constitutionally term limited...

It would have to be the TV show Jericho for something like that to happen. If something like that did happened it wouldn't really matter who was in power in Washington. All that would matter is do you own a gun and do you have bullets.

 

[Joe Carney]

It's interesting that most German films that got awarded by the US Acadamy had Nazi Germany as the main setting: Das Boot and Nirgendwo In Afrika. Das Leben Der Anderen was set in East Germany and had the Stasi as the main topic. Seems the world likes Germany for its totaliterian history. But then, the hell is the most interesting, only readable part in Dantes Devine Comedy...

Right now Hollywood is producing a big picture shot in Berlin with Tom Cruise as Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg who played together with General Oberst Beck a Key role in the faild plot against Hitler of the 20th of July 1944. This film is of particular interest in the endless series of hollywood Nazi-Gemany films because of the fact that it tries to shed light on the German restistance in these dark times. In the end the audience that sees this films (and many will see it just to see Tom Cruise) will learn that not every German was necessarily a nazi. I like hollywood (for that).

Hans

I rest my case. But your are right, this is a rare situtation.

A lot of people will refuse to see it because of Tom Cruise (Scientology).
There have been other films depicting Germans resisting the Nazis, but they
never got the press.

BTW Das Boot was really an anti war movie, and a great one.


What really bothers me is when they trivialize this period. Star Trek both TOS and Voyager had their "Nazi" episodes. Angel, the spinoff from Buffy the Vampire Slayer needed to dress some demons up in WWII era German Army and SS uniforms to create instant 'bad guy'. Others have done similar.
I've come to the conclusion when ever I see Nazi looking bad guys in a TV series that has nothing to do with WWII, the writers have run out of ideas and have turned one of the worst eras in human history into a cheap plot device.

 

[Russ McDonald]

t not every German was necessarily a nazi. I like hollywood (for that).

Hans

Here, Here

My Grandfather was a leader in ( I know I'm not spelling this right) Rostock, he opposed Hitler and was arrested 1938, he was killed 4 days before the end of the war.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

But the Baathist party controlling Iraq was sponsered by and modeled after the Hitler era Nazi party. Husseins' family helped setup Nazi sympathizer groups in the Muslim areas of the Balkans, which lead to the terrible genocide in post communist Yugoslavia (revenge for WWII atrocities). Hitlers' terrible legacy reached far beyond the war.

Interesting your comment about the Baathist party. Nevertheless I doubt that the muslim facist sympathiser groups you mentioned were originally reponsible for the genocide recently in Yugoslavia.

Fact is that in the Yogoslavian liberation war (during WW2) mostly Serbs under the leadership of Tito (partisans, communists) fought agains there cousins mostly Croats (Chetniks). The Chetniks collaborated with Nazi-Germany which was never forgotten until today. AFAIK were the Chetniks responsible for most of the genocide.

Note that Serbia is traditionally related to Russia (Panslavism) wheras Croatia as a roman-katholic society feels closer to western Europe. Anyone from Serbia differs in this? It's hard to build a nation upon resentiment, hate and suspicion. After the strong mans death (Tito) the wounds were not healed and started to bleed again (what a metaphor...)

Hans

 

[Joe Carney]

It's interesting that most German films that got awarded by the US Acadamy had Nazi Germany as the main setting: Das Boot and Nirgendwo In Afrika. Das Leben Der Anderen was set in East Germany and had the Stasi as the main topic. Seems the world likes Germany for its totaliterian history. But then, the hell is the most interesting, only readable part in Dantes Devine Comedy...

Right now Hollywood is producing a big picture shot in Berlin with Tom Cruise as Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg who played together with General Oberst Beck a Key role in the faild plot against Hitler of the 20th of July 1944. This film is of particular interest in the endless series of hollywood Nazi-Gemany films because of the fact that it tries to shed light on the German restistance in these dark times. In the end the audience that sees this films (and many will see it just to see Tom Cruise) will learn that not every German was necessarily a nazi. I like hollywood (for that).

Hans

p.s. When the Stasi got run out of the former East Germany I think they got hired as policy advisors to Dick Cheney.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Here, Here

My Grandfather was a leader in ( I know I'm not spelling this right) Rostock, he opposed Hitler and was arrested 1938, he was killed 4 days before the end of the war.

That's the USA, roots anywhere in the world. In your case in good old Europe and grandpa got executed because he was a straight character...

Rostock was behind the iron curtain until 1989, is located on the shores of the Baltic Sea and a beautifull little town. I have been there some time for sailing.

The history of German families can be wild and riven. My mums Grandpa was a physician and bird-lover - unfortunately Hitler friendly, lets faced it a nazi. Pesonally a nice guy though. My dads father was an Officer in the Wehrmacht and totally anti Nazi a classic social democrat. The safest place in these times for a dissident was the army. Sounds wierd but is true. SA and SS did not touch the Wehrmacht. Apparently my dads father died 1949 in a russian gulag... His brother survived KZ Sachsenhausen... Bad times.

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

p.s. When the Stasi got run out of the former East Germany I think they got hired as policy advisors to Dick Cheney.

Another conspirancy theory... Probably true. Germans tend to do things right even it's wrong. Interesting talent for bad guys.

EDIT: Thanks a lot for the interesting insights everybody, in this side of the worls it's late and the kids get up early...

 

[Russ McDonald]

That's the USA, roots anywhere in the world. In your case in good old Europe and grandpa got executed because he was a straight character...

Rostock was behind the iron curtain until 1989, is located on the shores of the Baltic Sea and a beautifull little town. I have been there some time for sailing.

The history of German families can be wild and riven. My mums Grandpa was a physician and bird-lover - unfortunately Hitler friendly, lets faced it a nazi. Pesonally a nice guy though. My dads Father was an Officer in the Wehrmacht and totally anti Nazi a classic social democrat. The safest place in these times for a dissident was the army. Sounds wierd but is true. SA and SS did not touch the Wehrmacht. Apperently my dads father died 1949 in a russian gulag... His brother survived KZ Sachsenhausen... Bad times.

Hans

My Mom escaped to the west, her husband at the time had my half sister and they got stopped. I met her for the first time 1989. I have allot of family in Idar-Oberstein. I was born in Kaiserslautern, Daddy was in the Airforce.