Politics, religion: was 2008 Elections...? - enter at your own risk

[Gavin Greenwalt]

When you use the term Civil War, in what context. A civil war Like our civil war, or do you mean a civil war like in the Balkans?

Balkans.

When you say rule of Law, what law are you talking about specifically?

Articles 41,42 and to some degree 51 of the UN Charter. (51 is tricky though because it's an exception to rules 41 and 42 therefore... by breaking 41 and 42 without it being within the exceptions of 51 you're sort of violating section 51, but only in not using it.)

Apparently the constitution agrees with my view that the US should respect the rule of law. I would refer you to Article Six of the constitution for more clarity on the subject.

Do you mean Sadam had no ties to terrorism or are you speaking about 911?

I mean beyond some PR moves he had no ideological connection to terrorists. In no way beyond PR benefited from terrorist activities. And did not orchestrate terrorists attacks against the US.

I'm sure he met with them in an effort to protect his own interests and ensure he could control his country. Just as he did with Donald Rumsfield, Cheney and other US dignitaries.

Is the war on terror a man (Osama) or is it a movement in your view?

The war on terror is an excuse to do whatever it is they want to do that day. Terrorism is a movement. A movement which needs to be stripped of its efficacy but will never be destroyed. Hence "War" is a poor term since a war implies a potential for victory. The criminal prosecution of international criminals would be a better description, but it's less exciting of a headline and doesn't grant the government it's much desired powers to fuck over the constitution like the word War gives.

How many Americans have to die in terrorist attacks on American soil, before you would feel justified, going anywhere any time to defend the nation.

Anywhere anytime? 301,139,947 give or take a few thousand. Perhaps we should invade Spain tommorow because there are terrorists there too? Besides... that's off topic. Invading Iraq wasn't to prevent terrorists attacks. It's a red herring. Afghanistan on the other hand was a legitimate target since it was a war against a government which attacked us. Iraq didn't attack us, had no plans to attack us and didn't have the means to attack us.

You personally thought it was in the best interest of peace that Sadam was taken out, why would you say that?

I would say that because I believe that. I believed that because eventually he would be overthrown but not before a lot of innocent people would die in the process and in the end we would have no influence in who those people were (probably sympathetic to Iran and probably fundamentalists.) History tells us that the victor is often the most savage adversary and not necessarily the party most interested in the public's well being.

I believe Kim Jung Ill should be executed as well, however I can't see any military action that would result in a desireable outcome. Therefore I would be opposed to a war with North Korea as well.

Can you name me a country that the UN has successfully rebuilt?

Well the problem with UN mandates is they usually don't have one. They almost always 'rebuild' under the ospices of the existing government. Iraq--like Germany and Japan are cases where at the end of the war there was no government. A very unusual circumstance. That being said I guess I put my single vote into El Salvador and ONUSAL's involvement in ending a long standing civil war and stabilizing the political process. While not a slam dunk --given the limitations of their mandate--quite impressive.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hans,
This attitude I find unbelievably arrogant, and I find it coming mostly from people who consider themselves as Intellectuals, and multi-culture-ists. The quest for self determination, personal freedom, and true representative government. Is not the exclusive domain of western culture. Japan, South Korea, Poland, the list is to long for this post. The Iraqi people have spoken in three separate elections, that have given birth to their democracy is it perfect, name me one that is... The Iraqi people have grabed the chance at freedom, evan under the threat of death, they have stood up... They are not alone, the Lebanese, the Palestinians, and the Afghanis are proving your assertion wrong.

Adobeone,

You didn't get the point (or I made myself not clear enough). Germany has always been and is a part of the western word. Therefore, integration back into civilized democracy was not hard to achieve.

Iraq, Iran and all other near east countries have only one common ground with us (the western world): Colonialism. Do you want to get ruled all the time? Do you want someone else to draw your borders? We messed the whole thing up. It seems almost impossible to open this gordian knot. Bush made this knot even bigger. It's the unlucky mixture of well-meant politics combined with personal interests military force and exceeding self-assureness which comes from stranded politics that leads to a situation like we have in Iraq.

Turkey is the only islamic country that has a democracy (which ist still ruled by the military, who break the human rights all the time - which military does not?). BUT: Turkey has not an islamic constitution, on the contrary: The Turkish constituion is purely build on laicism. Kemal Atatürk who "created" the modern Turkey was not led by western "friends".

If you ask some Turkish chap they will say: We did it all by ourselfs. Turning Turkey into a western democracy was blood, sweat and tears: No Arabian script anymore, but Latin fonts, no beards were allowed - kind of culture iconoclasm. Kemal did it a dictorship like manner.

Still, Turkey is not a member of the EU yet (they get it promised all the time) and there are many voices who don't want them in the EU. Why, because of human rights or a clash of cultures? People are anxious about different skintones, religions, cultures - at least to a certain extend I am (no one is free of these feelings) and I don't consider myself an ignorant, white european dumbass.

These things have to overcome and a nation like USA is a living example for a fairly successful melting pot. Europe seems to follow these footprints well but remeber that only a decade ago there was war in central Europe because of culture animosity.

Side note: Calling people "unbelievably arrogant" ist not helpful in a discussion except you want to bring it to an end...

Hans

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Turkey is intrigueing as well because it forbids a religiously affiliated government. The constitution mandates that the military remove the government from power even if it's elected by the people if it's religiously oriented.

Secularism is the gift of the renaisance and great awakening. It's also what most people misattribute to being "western".

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Secularism is the gift of the renaisance and great awakening. It's also what most people misattribute to being "western".

Yes.

A thing I came across recently was the fact that Bush believes in creationism, meaning God created men 6.000 years ago and we are not related to primates, ignoring Darwin completely. This stunned me. I never thought that since the age of enlightment a leader of a western country even the most powerful country can be so unreasonable. Scary.

I am wondering weather Hillary, Obama, and the others share this view of the world. Is this deseas widely spread? I am still stunned.

Hans

 

[Matthew Rogers]

A thing I came across recently was the fact that Bush believes in creationism, meaning God created men 6.000 years ago and we are not related to primates, ignoring Darwin completely. This stunned me. I never thought that since the age of enlightment a leader of a western country even the most powerful country can be so unreasonable. Scary.

I am wondering weather Hillary, Obama, and the others share this view of the world. Is this deseas widely spread? I am still stunned.

I love liberals that call themselves open-minded and then call other people's belief's a disease. I would say you are the one being unreasonable for being so flippant about other people's views.

BTW, there is a ton of evidence that that the Earth is only 6,000-8,000 years old. Take for example Mount St. Helens...in 20 minutes it made a landscape that people have said takes thousands of years to create.

Matthew

 

[Russ McDonald]

Side note: Calling people "unbelievably arrogant" ist not helpful in a discussion except you want to bring it to an end...

Hans

Hans,

I didn't call you unbelievably arrogant, I called the attitude unbelievably arrogant...

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I love liberals that call themselves open-minded and then call other people's belief's a disease. I would say you are the one being unreasonable for being so flippant about other people's views.

BTW, there is a ton of evidence that that the Earth is only 6,000-8,000 years old. Take for example Mount St. Helens...in 20 minutes it made a landscape that people have said takes thousands of years to create.

Matthew

Hi Matthew,

Tolerance is vital for living peacefully together. Yes, there are many liberals that are more conservative and mentaly immobile than many conservatives. Nontheless there is a big difference of beeing intolerant or beeing astonished how easily scientific knowledge is wiped away by faith and beliefs. Under the cloak of freedom of faith anything seems possibel. This is an example why politcal correctness has its obvious downsides.

There is a difference between faith and neglecting scientific evidence. Even the pope accepts Darwins research. Many famous scientist were religious people (Einstein for instance). There is not necessarily a contradiction per se.

Neglecting 300 years of geological research is like neglecting Newtons law about gravitation. How would be there any developement if science is subject to faith and belief?

Science and faith are two different things that should not be mixed. Evidence and proof is the base of science not faith otherwise science will dissolve.

Remember Galileo Galilei?


Seems like I stired up a hornets nest.

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hans,

I didn't call you unbelievably arrogant, I called the attitude unbelievably arrogant...

Well, since my attitude is a vital part of myself...

Hans (who likes hot tempered discussions)

 

[Russ McDonald]

Well, since my attitude is a vital part of myself...

Hans (who likes hot tempered discussions)

I'm sure you have a charitable attitude to those less fortunate than you, but that doesn't make you Mother Teresa...

 

[Michael Hastings]

Huh?

Huh?

BTW, there is a ton of evidence that that the Earth is only 6,000-8,000 years old. Take for example Mount St. Helens...in 20 minutes it made a landscape that people have said takes thousands of years to create.

Matthew

Huh??

Originally Posted by Hans von Sonntag
A thing I came across recently was the fact that Bush believes in creationism, meaning God created men 6.000 years ago and we are not related to primates, ignoring Darwin completely. This stunned me. I never thought that since the age of enlightment a leader of a western country even the most powerful country can be so unreasonable. Scary.

Hans

Scares me too!

 

[Russ McDonald]

Yes.

A thing I came across recently was the fact that Bush believes in creationism, meaning God created men 6.000 years ago and we are not related to primates, ignoring Darwin completely. This stunned me. I never thought that since the age of enlightment a leader of a western country even the most powerful country can be so unreasonable. Scary.

I am wondering weather Hillary, Obama, and the others share this view of the world. Is this deseas widely spread? I am still stunned.

Hans

Bush has been in power for 7 years, there is no National Christian Church Of the United States. No one is required by law to give to such a religious institution. Nor has there been a executive order to impose his belief on anyone...

It's clear that the man can separate his personal religious beliefs, from his role as President...

As a side bar, I was not aware that irrefutable evidence had been discovered of the missing link between primates and homosapiens. If there has been, please send me the source of the info.

For the record I do not share Bush's point of view.

 

[R Fogg]

As a side bar, I was not aware that irrefutable evidence had been discovered of the missing link between primates and homosapiens. If there has been, please send me the source of the info.

And while you are at it, could some one please show me irrefutable evidence that the earth is round and not a flat disc floating through space.

 

[Joel Kaye]

are you against the involvement in the Middle East because a. you hate George Bush and if he's for it, you're agin' it? 2. You believe that if there is a dangerous precedent being set (worldwide terrorism) that by ignoring it, it will go away? 3. You do not believe Middle Easterners are qualified to live in a free society?

I'm not against U.S. involvement in the Middle East or anywhere else. I'm generally against MILITARY involvement except in the rarest situations - like Gulf War I where the entire Western world supported us and we only paid 5% of the costs.

I just think there were a zillion other ways of dealing with Saddam than an ill advised war that has cost far, far more than even the most extravagant predictions of the Bush administration.

There are a cost/benefit - life/death consequences here. The black and white arguing of many people seems to be death to Saddam even if it costs a trillion dollars and his death doesn't make the people of Iraq any safer.

Some of you guys use these very simplistic arguments that just hold no water upon any kind of inspection.

Look, if this was a REAL war then war profits would be illegal and the entire country would be sacrificing to get it won. But this isn't a real war. It's the most incredible business opportunity these guys could have ever dreamed up. And it's bathed in the most transparently inane fear propaganda since Hitler IMHO.

Both Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell said in July of 2000 that Iraq was no threat to their neighbors much less any threat to the United States. Osama Bin Laden was a sworn enemy of Saddam Hussein. 9-11 didn't change anything regarding Iraq. Iraq's threat was a lie from top to bottom.

But we only sent 10,000 troops to Afghanistan to get Osama Bin Laden. Why did we send so few after the real target and so many after someone who was no threat 6 months earlier?

 

[Anthony Gratl]

this isn't a real war. It's the most incredible business opportunity these guys could have ever dreamed up. And it's bathed in the most transparently inane fear propaganda since Hitler IMHO.

Both Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell said in July of 2000 that Iraq was no threat to their neighbors much less any threat to the United States. Osama Bin Laden was a sworn enemy of Saddam Hussein. 9-11 didn't change anything regarding Iraq. Iraq's threat was a lie from top to bottom.

But we only sent 10,000 troops to Afghanistan to get Osama Bin Laden. Why did we send so few after the real target and so many after someone who was no threat 6 months earlier?

Yup. You forgot to mention Bin Laden's work with the CIA in the '80s. I'm convinced that these people are all on the same team, or at least talk frequently. They're playing a global powersharing game that has nothing to do with peace and happiness for 99% of the people on this planet. Nothing else explains the inconsistencies, lies, hypocrisis, and crazy amounts of money floating around the entire paradigm.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Nothing else explains the inconsistencies, lies, hypocrisis, and crazy amounts of money floating around the entire paradigm.

I'm slow to be the conspiracy theorist guy and I really don't think Bush planned 9-11 etc. BUT there's some pretty fascinating stuff in http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Probably most fascinating to me was this conversation:

Hollywood director, producer and documentary film maker Aaron Russo, currently receiving a wave of plaudits for his latest release, America: From Freedom to Fascism has said that Nicholas Rockefeller had personally assured him there was going to be an "event" that would trigger the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq eleven months before 9/11 took place.

During his career in the entertainment industry, Russo was manager for Bette Midler from 1972 to 1979 [1] and The Manhattan Transfer, and the producer of the films The Rose and Trading Places. He also produced Wise Guys. Russo has stated that he was the first person to book Led Zeppelin in a United States venue, (the "Electric Circus," Chicago,1968, later named the "Kinetic Playground").

Saying he had been approached many times by the Rockefellers and other members of the CFR elite in an attempt to recruit him, Russo recalled a conversation that would come home to roost on September 11, 2001.

"Here's what I do know first hand - I know that about eleven months to a year before 9/11 ever happened I was talking to my Rockefeller friend (Nicholas Rockefeller) and he said to me 'Aaron there's gonna be an event' and he never told me what the event was going to be - I'm not sure he knew what the event was going to be I don't know that he knew that," said Russo. '

Russo related how Rockefeller knew precisely what the event would lead to and which countries would be militarily targeted by the elite.

"He just said there's gonna be an event and out of that event we're gonna invade Afghanistan so we can run pipelines through the Caspian sea, we can go into Iraq to take the oil and establish bases in the middle east and to make the middle east part of the new world order and we're going to go after Venezuela - that's what's going to come out of this event."
"Eleven months to a year later that's what happened....he certainly knew that something was going to happen."

"In my relationships with some of these people I can tell you that it's as evil as it really gets - this is it - this is the game," stated Russo - also relating how members of the elite were routinely obsessed by creating a world identification society where people had to carry ID cards and prove who they were at all times.

Russo was told that if he joined the elite he would be exempted from any of the police state measures inflicted on the general public. He has now chosen to take a bold public stance on everything he knows and stated that the potential consequences no longer concern him and that freedom for future generations is paramount.

Rockefeller also told Russo that the elite families created and financed the women's lib movement so they could tax another half of the population and so that the children would be trained by them in government schools rather than in the context of the family unit.
Russo also sounded off on 9/11, openly airing his view for the first time that it was a complete inside job.

"People know that 9/11 was an inside job," said Russo, "look what they did here in America, look at 9/11, look what they did - they killed thousands of Americans - people jumping out of windows from a hundred floors up - they don't care," said the director.

"There's no way that Building 7 came down without a controlled demolition, it takes weeks to do the controlled demolition, they couldn't have done it in a few hours like Larry Silverstein said - it blows the whole game - concrete doesn't turn to powder unless its exploded."

"We all know that 9/11 was a fraud - an inside job," concluded Russo.

 

[Poi Boy]

Russo is smoking crack.
-A

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

It's clear that the man can separate his personal religious beliefs, from his role as President...

As a side bar, I was not aware that irrefutable evidence had been discovered of the missing link between primates and homosapiens. If there has been, please send me the source of the info.

For the record I do not share Bush's point of view.

Since Bush calls the "war" against terrorism the war against evil I am not sure how secular he thinks and acts.

There were tons of missing links (transitional fossil) found, eg. the acheopteryx. These fossils proved Darwins theory written in his book On The Origin Of The Species and established the modern evolutionary theory. Yes the missing link of Men has not be found yet but there is bullet proved evidence that Men populates mother earth longer than 6.000 years. C4 radio carbon method...

Good to know that you don't share Bushs view on the world!

Hans

EDIT: It's called C 14.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

So you've watched zeitgeistmovie poiboy? I think Russo's got way more access than you do, so why the insightless commentary? Make an informed comment as to why his opinion is flawed, but "smoking crack"? It's actually a serious discussion....

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Russo is smoking crack.
-A

Probably not, but:

There have been and still are many theories of conspiracy. For instance the idea of a world wide jewish plot. That led to the holocaust. One has to very careful with ideas like this.

Hans

 

[number6]

I'm not against U.S. involvement in the Middle East or anywhere else. I'm generally against MILITARY involvement except in the rarest situations - like Gulf War I where the entire Western world supported us and we only paid 5% of the costs.

I just think there were a zillion other ways of dealing with Saddam than an ill advised war that has cost far, far more than even the most extravagant predictions of the Bush administration.

There are a cost/benefit - life/death consequences here. The black and white arguing of many people seems to be death to Saddam even if it costs a trillion dollars and his death doesn't make the people of Iraq any safer.

Some of you guys use these very simplistic arguments that just hold no water upon any kind of inspection.

Look, if this was a REAL war then war profits would be illegal and the entire country would be sacrificing to get it won. But this isn't a real war. It's the most incredible business opportunity these guys could have ever dreamed up. And it's bathed in the most transparently inane fear propaganda since Hitler IMHO.

Both Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell said in July of 2000 that Iraq was no threat to their neighbors much less any threat to the United States. Osama Bin Laden was a sworn enemy of Saddam Hussein. 9-11 didn't change anything regarding Iraq. Iraq's threat was a lie from top to bottom.

But we only sent 10,000 troops to Afghanistan to get Osama Bin Laden. Why did we send so few after the real target and so many after someone who was no threat 6 months earlier?

Hi joelnet, I won't separate your post and answer point-by-point, but I would like to sort out a few places where I differ.

That said, I do agree that Gulf War I was a masterful stroke, but just like WW I was ended too soon and begat WW II, so did GW I beget GW II (wow, just realized that those initials meant that it was pre-ordained that W. would return to the desert:wink: ). Why? because Saddam, after accepting the terms of defeat after GW I continued attacking coalition aircraft that were enforcing the no-fly zone in Iraq. This was an act of war that had its beginnings in the Clinton Administration. Not only did he attack coalition aircraft, but he tried to assassinate G.H.W. Bush and Clinton as well. We kept turning the other cheek until the only ones we had left were the ones under our belt loops, and chances are if we turned those he would have given us a good swift kick square in between those cheeks. It was the nature of the man.

Having said that about Saddam, I don't think he, nor UBL either for that matter, are particularly important in the grand scheme of the events that have unfolded. The problem has been that pouers that be in the Middle East were satisfied to keep their collective peoples isolated so they (the rulers) could continue to enjoy their wealth and keep their hold on pouer. Since our involvement in that region it seems to me that the respective heads of government there are much more receptive to their citizen's needs.

Money? Profit? Yyyyyyyyyes! The world is not a commune. And as for whether or not this is a real war? Well, yes. It is. It is the way war is done in the 21st Century. Just like we had guns and butter during the Vietnam war, now we have smart bombs and oleomargarine during this one.

And we also have Adobe CS3 so I've got to free up my atherosclerotic bandwidth to continue dounloading 300 + MBs of updates. Back when I can.