Politics, religion: was 2008 Elections...? - enter at your own risk

[conrad gaunt]

Well Ron, did you happen to catch what those protesters had to say there in that field, I'd wager you did, not to mention the world. I love this suppression of free speech crap when I hear it. With free speech comes freedom of association. Just because your point of view is ignored, dismissed, or wrong does not mean that it is suppressed.

I don't mean this in a personal way, I speaking in a general way....

Your missing the point, UNELECTED people (who don`t represent anybody except themselves), are deciding global policies. And yes, it is ALL crap. I may not have anything in common with those people, but as an alien visiting earth, I find you humans stranger by the day..
BBC Learning zone have a politics documentary about that particular incident. There were several lawyers in that field, a barrister ,and a film crew (FC not in field, but with a telephoto lens).
Their journey and views are documented throughout the film (from London, to Dansk if memory serves). Nobody violent, just people saying "What are you talking about in there? Your policies kill people in less developed countries!". Even if I disagree with them, when political systems bypass the law, freedom is gone (except for dreams).
There`s not really any political party worth voting for in the UK at the moment, so point of views don`t come into it for me. I realise now why the Scottish have always been revolting!

 

[Russ McDonald]

Your missing the point, UNELECTED people (who don`t represent anybody except themselves), are deciding global policies. And yes, it is ALL crap. I may not have anything in common with those people, but as an alien visiting earth, I find you humans stranger by the day..
BBC Learning zone have a politics documentary about that particular incident. There were several lawyers in that field, a barrister ,and a film crew (FC not in field, but with a telephoto lens).
Their journey and views are documented throughout the film (from London, to Dansk if memory serves). Nobody violent, just people saying "What are you talking about in there? Your policies kill people in less developed countries!". Even if I disagree with them, when political systems bypass the law, freedom is gone (except for dreams).
There`s not really any political party worth voting for in the UK at the moment, so point of views don`t come into it for me. I realise now why the Scottish have always been revolting!

As far as economics is concerned, the world economy has teeter on the edge this week because of a a group of individuals with sub-prime credit defaulted on loans.

The economic choices of the masses drive the markets. Some groups or individuals can dominate a market for a time, but Stalin like control no. It isn't the billions they control. It's the dollars we spend.....

Our we talking the G8 summit, because if we are, I believe they're elected heads of state. Much of the policies out of that, are billions in loans to the developing nations every year, throwing money at problems just seems to create more problems. The sorry state of American's education system is proof positive of that.

So give me some context here Ron. I'm not sure we a talking about the same thing.

 

[Joel Kaye]

This is one of your Achilles heels, when it comes to politics you think 2 dimensionally. Democrats good Republicans bad. 911 changed everything.

Your achilles heel is assuming. I clearly delineate the current set of Republicans and specifically the Neocons (self named BTW) as a unique breed.

I'm nearly as frustrated in Democrats as I am Republicans currently. I don't like or trust Hillary. I think Nancy Pelosi has been worse than worthless. I think the Dems that recently got elected to Congress have abdicated their responsibility to check the powers of the executive branch and should be replaced.

I'm totally party agnostic. I evaluate every issue on it's own merit.

I believe ANY independent and honest viewer of the Bush administration - like MANY, MANY conservatives now are admitting his policies have failed. Look, when even Buckley turns on the current batch of Republicans it's fair to say they've got issues.

Now as to 9-11 changing "everything" I totally disagree. 19 dudes with boxcutters got on our own airplanes. That's not much of a threat. More people die from misprescribed drugs every year. If they had WMD they would have used WMD. If Bush believed we had a security problem he would have secured the Ports and Borders.

15 of the 19 guys were from Saudi Arabia. A KINGdom with no democracy and horrible human rights violations. A country where the school system literally trains Saudi kids to hate Americans.

Answer me why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia?

Invading Iraq made, to quote one famous terrorism expert in the administration, "about as much sense as invading Mexico".

We've got people in office that are not honest and the evidence is overwhelming. Literally the only people who can't see it are die-hard partisans OR people who will admit they've never researched it.

 

[IAN SUN]

Joelnet, your logic is unimpeachable.

 

[Russ McDonald]

Your achilles heel is assuming. I clearly delineate the current set of Republicans and specifically the Neocons (self named BTW) as a unique breed.

I'm nearly as frustrated in Democrats as I am Republicans currently. I don't like or trust Hillary. I think Nancy Pelosi has been worse than worthless. I think the Dems that recently got elected to Congress have abdicated their responsibility to check the powers of the executive branch and should be replaced.

I'm totally party agnostic. I evaluate every issue on it's own merit.

I believe ANY independent and honest viewer of the Bush administration - like MANY, MANY conservatives now are admitting his policies have failed. Look, when even Buckley turns on the current batch of Republicans it's fair to say they've got issues.

Now as to 9-11 changing "everything" I totally disagree. 19 dudes with boxcutters got on our own airplanes. That's not much of a threat. More people die from misprescribed drugs every year. If they had WMD they would have used WMD. If Bush believed we had a security problem he would have secured the Ports and Borders.

15 of the 19 guys were from Saudi Arabia. A KINGdom with no democracy and horrible human rights violations. A country where the school system literally trains Saudi kids to hate Americans.

Answer me why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia?

Invading Iraq made, to quote one famous terrorism expert in the administration, "about as much sense as invading Mexico".

We've got people in office that are not honest and the evidence is overwhelming. Literally the only people who can't see it are die-hard partisans OR people who will admit they've never researched it.

Why did we not Invade Saudi Arabia, because they are more than willing to kill the terrorist in their country.

The 15 to 19 guys were highly trained and disciplined men. Who took advantage of a soft target, they were supported by planners and a logistic apparatus. Coupled by a vast and sophisticated propaganda machine. They may not have a nation state, but they operate like one.

The invasion of Iraq was genius, when you look at the invasion as part of the larger war on terror.

1st. Lets start with the Middle East and the region pre 911. The driving force of the regional conflict was the Israeli and the Palestinian issue…. Iran is exporting terror and the radical Islamic revolution by proxy through Hamas In Palestine, and Hezbola in Lebanon…. Sadam Hussein down but far from out, and paying suicide bombers families’ cash, every time one of their children blew people up in Israel, in effect throwing gas on an already blazing inferno…. The Arab masses having no say in the governments they lived under, add desperate poverty, which fills the ranks of terrorists…. The perception that America's goal in the region was colonial with a desire to impose Christianity, and erase Islam from the face of the earth…. Afghanistan trapped under Taliban rule, which redefined the word oppression and tyranny…. Libya in a full-scale development of a Nuke as well a chemical weapons.

Finally add to that the Americas policy decision to opt for Containment as far back as the Truman administration through the Clinton administration. Containment looks good on paper, but in reality it is a Faustian bargain. You have to deal with the governments of the region, ergo American support of Sadam Hussein in the eighties, in an attempt to contain Iranian expansion… That’s just the tip of the iceberg of deals made with Devils in the area.

These various deals foster resentment, because they change with each administration, enemy one-day friend the next. Which gives the leaders of these Islamic blood cults, the common enemy to pin the despotism, poverty, and the concept of Arab humiliation on. Just as Hitler did with the Jews… Now you take this small group of religiously twisted and violent people who surround themselves with innocent, and peaceful followers of Islam, who just like us just trying to make it through the day.

This all culminates in 3000 people dead in an attack on American soil, something that hasn’t happened in New York or Washington DC since the war of 1812. Not as a singular spectacular attack, but one of many in a broad campaign to destroy the principles of western civilization, and bring the world under Islamic rule. It’s insane but that is their cause they are more than willing to kill to bring it about…

end part one

 

[Russ McDonald]

Part two.

On September 12 2001, it is painfully obvious that Containment as a policy to bring stability and security is a complete and total failure… War has come the streets of America.

The first question Joel, and my friend Bro from Canada is. Are you pacifists? If you are, that is fine I respect your point of view. I don’t agree, and I would say that the gulags and mass graves of Tyrants are full of pacifists. No mater what I say, no mater the scale of death an destruction can convince a true pacifist that war is justified… I’m going to assume for the purposes of this post that you are not pacifist.

The next question becomes, who is the enemy? Is it just Osoma Bin Ladin, or is it radical Islam? The answer is in the next question. If you invade Afghanistan and remove the Islamic government that represents their idealized way it should be, and you kill the leader that plan the attack, that had allot of Arabs literally dancing in the streets in celebration. Would that be a object lesson, that says don’t fuck with the US, we better find someone else to hate, and back off because we love America now, and Osama was a fool.

Or would it be a call to arms as it was, when the Russian invaded Afghanistan and left behind over 40,000 dead Russian soldiers. As well as Osama being elevated as a martyr, and then used by the next Wingnut.

The latter is the most likely outcome. It’s not a person it’s a movement, just like Hitler’s Nazi movement. How did we ultimately win World War II and stopped the Nazi movement, we attack on two fronts splitting his men and material, and brought the war to his backyard with a brutal bombing campaign which in the end broke the will of the German people.

Iraq is the Islamic radicals eastern front. The lack the manpower to win the battle of attrition, the greatest enemy of their movement is freedom. The Arab masses want freedom and self- determination. They after thousands of years are now getting it… The strangle hold of there movement is slipping away. They haven’t been able to stop freedom in Afghanistan they can’t stop it in Iraq… So now they are trying to destabilize Pakistan. Their circle of influence continues to compress soon. Stability is coming to the region, not because of us, but because the intellectual and tangible reality of true Arab freedom is on the march.

Lets reexamine the region post 911. The Taliban is out of power (corrected from the original)… Sadam is gone, replace by a true Arab democracy. Libya has abandoned there WMD programs, The Palestinians have split into the West Bank who want peace, and a much smaller Gaza controlled by Hamas that still want war… Lebanon is free of Serian control and regaining its sovereignty. It is clear America is not a destroying Islam in a new Christian crusade. The single driving force in the radical Islamic world Iran is surrounded and on the verge of a new Revolution, that in the end will bring Persians true democracy… Has it been bloodless, No. Wars never are. When you put the death and destruction in the context of the War against the Nazi’s that brought freedom to Europe it isn’t even close…

 

[Poi Boy]

Adobe you blow my mind ! " invading Iraq was genius" "the Taliban is gone" etc. etc. You are one amusing but scary guy.
-A

 

[Russ McDonald]

Adobe you blow my mind ! " invading Iraq was genius" "the Taliban is gone" etc. etc. You are one amusing but scary guy.
-A

Your right the I should of written the Taliban is out of Power, not gone. mind was ahead of the fingers.

 

[R Fogg]

Sometimes I think Adobeone is redusers own steven colbert. He's saying everything ironically right?

 

[Tom Lowe]

Sometimes I think Adobeone is redusers own steven colbert.

Haha.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm not a pacifist and I aggressively rejected the notion of invading Iraq.

Why?

It was already in a smoldering civil war being smothered by a dictator.
We had no legal case and I believe in the rule of law even when I think the guilty are getting away with murder, because the precedent and alternative is far more horrifying.
There was no evidence of terrorist ties.

Now you say "fight them there so we don't fight them here." Why? Why should the Iraqis have to fight our war on terror?

It's like taking a fist fight over into your neighbors living room because you don't want to trash your own house. It's morally reprehensible.


That's not to say I didn't support taking sadaam out. I personally did. But it had to be legal, well staged and supported by the UN who knows how to rebuild countries. None of that happened.

And I would say Joel's logic is impeachable. He threw in "I don't like or trust Hillary." But provided no backing, in fact most of what he said was just impressions and feelings without any defense at all. That's not logical that's just a feeling.

 

[Russ McDonald]

Need to ask a few questions.

I'm not a pacifist and I aggressively rejected the notion of invading Iraq.

Why?

It was already in a smoldering civil war being smothered by a dictator.

When you use the term Civil War, in what context. A civil war Like our civil war, or do you mean a civil war like in the Balkans?

We had no legal case and I believe in the rule of law even when I think the guilty are getting away with murder, because the precedent and alternative is far more horrifying.

When you say rule of Law, what law are you talking about specifically?

There was no evidence of terrorist ties.

Do you mean Sadam had no ties to terrorism or are you speaking about 911?

Is the war on terror a man (Osama) or is it a movement in your view?

Now you say "fight them there so we don't fight them here." Why? Why should the Iraqis have to fight our war on terror?

How many Americans have to die in terrorist attacks on American soil, before you would feel justified, going anywhere any time to defend the nation.

It's like taking a fist fight over into your neighbors living room because you don't want to trash your own house. It's morally reprehensible.

That's not to say I didn't support taking sadaam out. I personally did. But it had to be legal, well staged and supported by the UN who knows how to rebuild countries. None of that happened.

You personally thought it was in the best interest of peace that Sadam was taken out, why would you say that?

Can you name me a country that the UN has successfully rebuilt?

And I would say Joel's logic is impeachable. He threw in "I don't like or trust Hillary." But provided no backing, in fact most of what he said was just impressions and feelings without any defense at all. That's not logical that's just a feeling.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Part two.
The latter is the most likely outcome. It’s not a person it’s a movement, just like Hitler’s Nazi movement. How did we ultimately win World War II and stopped the Nazi movement, we attack on two fronts splitting his men and material, and brought the war to his backyard with a brutal bombing campaign which in the end broke the will of the German people.

I find this thread very interesting!

Adobeone,

the Nazi regime is (hopefully) a solitary occurrence and hardly to be compared to anything like we acounter today.

1. Before Hitler, Germany has been one of the most impulsive countries world wide, almost in any respect - literature, fine arts, science, etc... One of the leading nations in something we nowadays call the reasonable western world.

2. The US did not win the war, it were the allied US, UK, Russia and France.

3. There was no real need to break the will of the German people since many of them were not Nazi, not neccesarily innocent but some sort of victims. For sure there was the need of breaking the military power.

4. Facism is not a religion, it's an attitude. Facists feel them self superior to others. The holocaust (it's only a word, one should say the worst, most unbelivable genozide in history) is the result of this kind of attitude.

5. After the war Germany has been easily integrated in the western world. Philosophers like Kant and Hegel, scientist like Einstein and Max Planck, inventers like Carl Benz and Otto Lilienthal and last but not least composers like Beethoven and Bach had and still have huge influence into what we all call the western culture. No clash of culture... on the contrary.

None of the obove mentioned points apply to the Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia...

Hans

 

[Russ McDonald]

Hans,

I find this thread very interesting!

Adobeone,

the Nazi regime is (hopefully) a solitary occurrence and hardly to be compared to anything like we acounter today.

1. Before Hitler, Germany has been one of the most impulsive countries world wide, almost in any respect - literature, fine arts, science, etc... One of the leading nations in something we nowadays call the reasonable western world.

Iraq had a Very High literacy rate, a modern infrastructure, extensive agriculture, and a high degree of technical expertise.

2. The US did not win the war, it were the allied US, UK, Russia and France.

The war was won by the industrial mite of the United States, plain and simple. If President Roosevelt had not instituted Lend Lease before the American's entry into the war. Britain may have lost the war, further if the US decided not to wage war on Germany. It is quite possible that the Europe we know would be Germania. It wasn't until the day light raids by Americans at a great cost in lives, on the massive German industrial complex. That the tide of war changed.

3. There was no real need to break the will of the German people since many of them were not Nazi, not neccesarily innocent but some sort of victims. For sure there was the need of breaking the military power.

3 What you have said I have no issue with, only at the time the Commander of Bomber command targeted civilians with that stated purpose... which is the context of my statement.

4. Facism is not a religion, it's an attitude. Facists feel them self superior to others. The holocaust (it's only a word, one should say the worst, most unbelivable genozide in history) is the result of this kind of attitude.

What we face today is evan more dangerous, the attitude of the Islamic Fascist is the same as their Nazi counter part. Instead of just Jews this time its everyone who doesn't agree with their twist view of Islam. We are Infidels, collaborators, and caffers.

5. After the war Germany has been easily integrated in the western world. Philosophers like Kant and Hegel, scientist like Einstein and Max Planck, inventers like Carl Benz and Otto Lilienthal and last but not least composers like Beethoven and Bach had and still have huge influence into what we all the western culture. No clash of culture... on the contrary.

None of the obove mentioned points apply to the Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia...

Hans

This attitude I find unbelievably arrogant, and I find it coming mostly from people who consider themselves as Intellectuals, and multi-culture-ists. The quest for self determination, personal freedom, and true representative government. Is not the exclusive domain of western culture. Japan, South Korea, Poland, the list is to long for this post. The Iraqi people have spoken in three separate elections, that have given birth to their democracy is it perfect, name me one that is... The Iraqi people have grabed the chance at freedom, evan under the threat of death, they have stood up... They are not alone, the Lebanese, the Palestinians, and the Afghanis are proving your assertion wrong.

 

[number6]

This attitude I find unbelievably arrogant, and I find it coming mostly from people who consider themselves as Intellectuals, and multi-culture-ists. The quest for self determination, personal freedom, and true representative government. Is not the exclusive domain of western culture. Japan, South Korea, Poland, the list is to long for this post. The Iraqi people have spoken in three separate elections, that have given birth to their democracy is it perfect, name me one that is... The Iraqi people have grabed the chance at freedom, evan under the threat of death, they have stood up... They are not alone, the Lebanese, the Palestinians, and the Afghanis are proving your assertion wrong.

Adobeone, have tried to stay out of this debate because you were fending off the attacks so effectively that I figured I would just get in your way... besides, I don't have enough free time to get involved in a running debate at the present.

However, I felt like an "atta boy" might reassure you that you are not toiling in isolation.

And I just wanted to toss out something for everyone to mull over for themselves... are you against the involvement in the Middle East because a. you hate George Bush and if he's for it, you're agin' it? 2. You believe that if there is a dangerous precedent being set (worldwide terrorism) that by ignoring it, it will go away? 3. You do not believe Middle Easterners are qualified to live in a free society?

I'm not asking for an answer and probably won't see any responses for a day or more, so take your time and count to a high number if you feel a need to respond.

G'night.

 

[Poi Boy]

Adobeone, have tried to stay out of this debate because you were fending off the attacks so effectively that I figured I would just get in your way... besides, I don't have enough free time to get involved in a running debate at the present.

However, I felt like an "atta boy" might reassure you that you are not toiling in isolation.

And I just wanted to toss out something for everyone to mull over for themselves... are you against the involvement in the Middle East because a. you hate George Bush and if he's for it, you're agin' it? 2. You believe that if there is a dangerous precedent being set (worldwide terrorism) that by ignoring it, it will go away? 3. You do not believe Middle Easterners are qualified to live in a free society?

I'm not asking for an answer and probably won't see any responses for a day or more, so take your time and count to a high number if you feel a need to respond.

G'night.

Not against involvement at all, far from it, involvement is absolutely necessary. Middle Easterners are absolutely qualified to to live in a free society. What six and adobe don't seem to comprehend is that it will not happen by the might of the US military.
-A

 

[Russ McDonald]

Not against involvement at all, far from it, involvement is absolutely necessary. Middle Easterners are absolutely qualified to to live in a free society. What six and adobe don't seem to comprehend is that it will not happen by the might of the US military.
-A

The might of the US military is the vary thing that is allowing democracy to take hold...

The might of the US military is much more that bullets and bombs, the change in Anbar province is proof of that...

Look the arguments about weather we should have gone into Iraq or not are academic at this point in history. The reality is we are there and we as a nation have a responsibility to leave it better than we found it. At this point today that seems to be in reach...

 

[Poi Boy]

The might of the US military is the vary thing that is allowing democracy to take hold...

The might of the US military is much more that bullets and bombs, the change in Anbar province is proof of that...

Look the arguments about weather we should have gone into Iraq or not are academic at this point in history. The reality is we are there and we as a nation have a responsibility to leave it better than we found it. At this point today that seems to be in reach...

Boy Howdy ! We totally screwed up by leaving Afghanistan before the job was done, and didn't spend the money to rebuild. The result is the resurgence of the Taliban and the meltdown taking place in Pakistan. Then we jumped to Iraq and as soon as we leave, today or ten years from now, it will go to shit. What a fucking waste of life, money and opportunity. Genius indeed !
-A

 

[Russ McDonald]

Boy Howdy ! We totally screwed up by leaving Afghanistan before the job was done, and didn't spend the money to rebuild. The result is the resurgence of the Taliban and the meltdown taking place in Pakistan. Then we jumped to Iraq and as soon as we leave, today or ten years from now, it will go to shit. What a fucking waste of life, money and opportunity. Genius indeed !
-A

What's with the hostility Phil!

I have friends who have been getting shot at in Afghanistan, nobody left nothing the mission is ongoing. Your argument is two years old. Just because the main stream media isn't covering it, does not mean nothing is happening.

Are you a member of the school a thought, that if we killed Osama Bin Laden the war between the US and radical Islam would be over. I hope you're not that naive. Furthermore they thought Osama Bin Laden may have been in Tora Bora. No one had eyes on him during that battle... In fact there are many who believe he had already left Afghanistan before the attacks on 911...

Now they feel he maybe in the tribal regions of northern Pakistan they don't know... If they could find him, he would be dead. So the next President can count on your support if they decide to invade those tribal regions and as you put it, and finish the Job... You think the cost in blood, money, and the lives of innocent civilians was high in Iraq. It will pail in comparison to the carnage that kind of invasion will deliver. We may just mite have too, but I'm glad you'll be selling war bonds....

10 years from now it could go to shit, but it is just as likely things could be fantastic...

 

[Poi Boy]

What's with the hostility Phil!

I have friends who have been getting shot at in Afghanistan, nobody left nothing the mission is ongoing. Your argument is two years old. Just because the main stream media isn't covering it, does not mean nothing is happening.

Are you a member of the school a thought, that if we killed Osama Bin Laden the war between the US and radical Islam would be over. I hope you're not that naive. Furthermore they thought Osama Bin Laden may have been in Tora Bora. No one had eyes on him during that battle... In fact there are many who believe he had already left Afghanistan before the attacks on 911...

Now they feel he maybe in the tribal regions of northern Pakistan they don't know... If they could find him, he would be dead. So the next President can count on your support if they decide to invade those tribal regions and as you put it, and finish the Job... You think the cost in blood, money, and the lives of innocent civilians was high in Iraq. It will pail in comparison to the carnage that kind of invasion will deliver. We may just mite have too, but I'm glad you'll be selling war bonds....

10 years from now it could go to shit, but it is just as likely things could be fantastic...

Osama is irrelevant and may possibly be dead. That has nothing to do with the fact that we dropped the ball by leaving Afgh to go to Iraq, I don't think there is much argument about that except maybe on fox news. A hint, it isn't about re invading it is about rebuilding. I hope you are right that things will be fantastic but that optimism is shared by ...hmmm well I don't think anyone.
-A