Politics, religion: was 2008 Elections...? - enter at your own risk

[vincelucero]

Wonder what the first RED shot political campaign will be?

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

Well, in a comment that will be sure to ostracize me from almost everyone here on REDUser.net, let me say that I was also quite glad to see Obama win AND Edwards finish second. . . but for very different reasons. I want ANYONE who can stop Hillary now, because I think she'd be almost certain to win the general against any of the current crop of Republicans. However, I'll bet anyone, anything that Obama wouldn't win a general election against ANY Republican. So, since I sure as heck want a Republican to win in the general (raging conservative that I am!), I can't help but pull for anyone but Hillary. So. . . GO OBAMA! Beat that Hillary!



Stephen

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I want ANYONE who can stop Hillary now

I can fully agree with that.

 

[Rick Darge]

Poor Kucinich... My prediction is George W 2008

 

[Joel Kaye]

I just to make sure we have a new president that won't pick a hardcore conservative for the next Supreme Court vacancy

Good point. I like Edwards and Obama. I could deal with Ron Paul just fine because I think he's honest. Huckabee, I don't know anything about... but I think we can live without a Republican for a while. They have seriously messed up over the past 8 years and the true fallout has yet to begin. They don't deserve to be rewarded for all their failure, cronyism and corruption with more power IMHO.

 

[Johnny St.Ours]

Poor Kucinich... My prediction is George W 2008

yeah, look out, that guy's probably going to try and get himself re-elected, and there's really only one way that could happen. Wonder who's going to "attack" us?

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Yay!!! I'm pulling for Huckabee too!

Actually, I consider myself an independent thinker and I don't lean one way or another. As of right now, I'm anxiously watching both Obama and Huckabee and I think they both have a lot of good things to say, even though some of their viewpoints conflict. I think these two are the best candidates for '08 that have presented themselves.

I would call myself a Republican right now because they mostly represent my beliefs. These are the issues that are important to me, and I believe to be crucial to not only our country's (USA) future, but many other countries futures.

Taxes - I love the fairtax. Only thing I'm not crazy about it is the pre-bate each month. I wish there was some way to avoid it so it would reduce the size of government that much more. Problem with it is it will be hard to get the dingdongs in washington to vote for it.

Abortion - I'm sorry, you may have turned your morals off, but I know it's murder. It's putting yourself ahead of someone else to make your own life easier because you didn't "plan" for it--it's 9 months out of an average lifespan of 70-80 years. There are PLENTY of people who want to adopt unwanted children (I know this for a fact because my wife's father is an adoption lawyer.) The two problems are...not enough babies and it costs a buttload of money to adopt. Why not use all this money that's going to planned parenthood to help mothers go through delivery and make it cheaper for people who want to adopt. The question I always ask people is, "what if you had be aborted..."

War - I can't say that I am crazy about how it's been handled (listen to your generals and then send 3x as many troops as they say it will take) it is keeping the fighting out of the US. As much as we try to win the hearts of minds of people over there, there are still going to be a radical group of people who hate the US (and much of europe.) To be honest, they will keep attacking until they are all dead, or we are. It's that simple. Watch The Kingdom--very interesting movie.

Social Security - It's gotta end. It's not good for the US because it doesn't encourage people to be wise about their money. I would love to say right now everyone 40 or older will get SS, but the rest of us will not (even though will we pay into it until the last 40 year old dies.) It would be hard on all of us younger folks, but we would also give our kids a better system (or lack there of) to live under.

My philosophy is to work hard--that's how you get ahead. Sure, some people might get breaks that others don't. However, there is NO reason that in the USA that a person can't get an education, a decent job, and live comfortably.

Matthew
PS. Don't flame me. We can chose to disagree.

 

[Russ McDonald]

Good point. I like Edwards and Obama. I could deal with Ron Paul just fine because I think he's honest. Huckabee, I don't know anything about... but I think we can live without a Republican for a while. They have seriously messed up over the past 8 years and the true fallout has yet to begin. They don't deserve to be rewarded for all their failure, cronyism and corruption with more power IMHO.

I'm a Registered Independent.

I would love see your list of failures.

 

[Ken Willinger]

I would love see your list of failures.

Let's start with 1.
Not getting Osama Bin Laden when it has been admitted that the US government knew where he was while he was still in Afghanistan.
And 2.
Moving against Iraq with false information when it had nothing to do with the attacks against the US, thus involving us in this quagmire of a war.

BTW, I'm a registered independent.

 

[Scott M]

I'm hoping Fred Thompson's momentum picks up.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Abortion - I'm sorry, you may have turned your morals off, but I know it's murder.

Matthew
PS. Don't flame me. We can chose to disagree.

I'm sorry the moment you insinuate that people who think abortion is acceptable are effectively supporting murder you've lost your right to not get attacked.

"Hey guys. You're all a bunch of disfunctional sociopaths who condone genocide.... Don't flame me bro!"

War -[...] it is keeping the fighting out of the US. As much as we try to win the hearts of minds of people over there, there are still going to be a radical group of people who hate the US (and much of europe.) To be honest, they will keep attacking until they are all dead, or we are.

It's a load of horse patooey. Sure there are people who want to kill americans and establish a world islamic regime. Sure they're a serious threat that needs to be dealt with militarily and diplomatically. But the concept that they're this threat to our way of life is complete and utter bullshit. More than 17,000 people died in traffic accidents involving alcohol in 2002. *That's* what I call a threat to my way of life being killed by an idiot with a bud light.

The only threat to our constitution comes from the over zealous headline grabbing constitutional terrorism from within. Which at every step has been met with cheers and patriotic songs.

Sadaam was a bad man but he hated terrorists as much as we did because he had just as much to lose by a talibanesque take over. He had a neighbor which was adminstered by a ruthless dictator... and he saw how that turned out when the people turned to the religious authorities to help. He even had the pleasure of fighting a war of his own as a result.

Social Security - It's gotta end. It's not good for the US because it doesn't encourage people to be wise about their money.

You honestly trust the guy serving you burgers at McDonalds to manage his money wisely? Please. Most people don't have the foggiest clue how to invest, save for retirement--most won't if they aren't forced to. Then we have homeles destitutes wandering about taking up tax money and social services. People who are good with money... make a lot of money. That's their reward. Social Security is a government enforced policy to ensure that people at least put away the bare minimum to stay independent if at all possible.

My philosophy is to work hard--that's how you get ahead. Sure, some people might get breaks that others don't. However, there is NO reason that in the USA that a person can't get an education, a decent job, and live comfortably.

Except for the fact that lots of people simply don't understand and or were not raised in an environment to know how to do these things. And that's ignoring the portion of the population that are literally idiots and pretty much hopeless causes. I can't say for certain how they got that way. But I know quite a few of them. Statistically speaking though the poor work longer hours, more jobs and physically more demanding work.

</rant>

 

[David Mullen ASC]

How about putting a multi-billion dollar war on a credit card rather than figure out a way to fund it? That's going to have long-lasting ramifications.

A social safety net for the elderly and infirm, let alone veterens, is absolutely the right and moral thing for a civilized nation to do, particularly one as wealthy as this one. Regardless of whether people should have saved more in their earning years (and saving & investment should be encouraged, no doubt) there are always people who will need help. For example, what if someone is a scrupulous saver and investor... but loses all their money due to paying for a long-term illness that keeps them from working? Just their tough luck if they are then broke just at the time they are too old and too ill to work anymore?

People can be good with their money... and still lose most or all of it due to unplanned events. And frankly, there will always be a percentage of people who work at low wages and can barely keep up with normal expenses, who can't save anything despite wanting to. This isn't the Middle Ages where we can just let the poor, elderly, infirm, and insane wander the moors begging for handouts. We should be better than that after 1000 years! There is an assumption by some that everyone can take care of themselves despite the fact that it's never been true in the entire course of human history. I guess it is a form of blind optimism.

Sure, Social Security needs reforming... and probably people who are well-off in their retirement don't really need access to it.

But saying that if we just got rid of safety nets, then people would no longer need them... is a little like saying that if we just got rid of disaster relief, natural disasters would stop happening.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I would love see your list of failures.

Starting the Iraqi War
Sending in too few troops initially
National Debt
Ignoring/supressing climate change
Government Spending
Erosion of Constitutional Rights
The Manned Mars Mission requirements without providing funding
Torture
Stem Cells
Katrina response
...

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I once met a young woman with MS who struggled daily to make the walk from her apartment door to the bus stop down the street, and with no hope of getting better probably, only worse with time. Try telling someone like her that all she needs to do is work harder and she'll be able to live comfortably in a house. And this is someone who just finished collage. Now imagine someone dirt-poor who is also hit with other impediments that even you or I would find a staggering challenge to overcome. It's a big lie that everyone can take care of themselves. There will always be people who need assistance of some sort, whether or not it's their own fault.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I personally believe the greatest change of the 21st century will be an acknowledgement that "Free Will" is a lie perpetuated as a cover to blaim the disadvantaged for their own inadequacies.

The day that scientists are able to control a person to A) do something and B) make the individual think that's what they wanted to do all along is the day that our society is going to face an enormous moral dilema.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I'm a Registered Independent.

I would love see your list of failures.

Before I begin I need to state that I find many Democrats reprehensible in their actions and could ramble on about that at length too... but they are not as bad as Bush and the Republican Congress who rubber stamped every bad policy idea (many of whom have been tossed out of office already).

I also thought Bush would be OK when he was first elected. Remember he ran his campaign saying America should not have an interventionist foreign policy. In fact, almost everything Bush said in the first campaign is not what he has done.

This topic would take quite a while - but it clearly would include everything about Iraq and Katrina and much about Corporate cronyism, the Patriot Act, the loss of Habeus Corpus.

Running the country more like a dictator than a President SERVING the people and BOTH parties in Congress.

The Presidential Power grab and "signing statements".

Borrowing money from China to fight a war for oil while the oil companies make the greatest profits in the history of the world AND still get tax breaks pretty much sums up the Bush administration. 15 of the 19 9-11 hijackers were from that NON-DEMOCRATIC country where they teach their kids to kill Americans in school... Saudi Arabia. But somehow Republicans love that country.

The entire Jack Abramoff scandal.

The U.S. Attorney scandal.

The Voting Scandals. Remember, in Ohio Republicans are currently in jail for fixing elections there in which Bush won by a narrow margin. My opinion after reading much on the topic is both Bush wins were fixed and he should never have served a day in office.

Cronyism - ie appointing inept friends.

Really - this list of what Bush and his administration have done to mislead our outright lie about so many topics would take thousands and thousands of pages to document. He truly will go down as one of the worst one or two presidents in American history.


For corruption here's a starter - and remember much of the following happened while corrupt Republicans in power were doing everything they could to go keep their friends safe:

Indicted / Convicted/ Pled Guilty

* Eric G. Andell - deputy undersecretary in charge of newly created Office of Safe and Drug-Free Schools (previously senior adviser to Secretary of Education Rod Paige) - pleaded guilty to one count of conflict of interest for using government travel for personal causes and was sentenced to one year of probation, 100 hours of community service, and fined $5,000.

* Claude Allen - Assistant to the President for Domestic Policy- resigned, pled guilty to shoplifting from Target stores.

* Lester Crawford - Commissioner, FDA - resigned in late September 2005 after only two months on the job. On October 17th, he pleaded guilty to two misdemeanor counts, making a false writing and conflict of interest. On February 27, 2007, Crawford was sentenced to to three years of probation and was fined $90,000.

* Brian Doyle - Deputy Press Secretary, Department of Homeland Security - Resigned in wake of child sex scandal. Doyle was arrested on April 4th, 2006 and pleaded no contest on September 19, 2006 to seven counts of use of a computer to seduce a child and sixteen counts of transmitting harmful material to a minor. On November 17th, 2006 Brian Doyle was sentenced to five years in state prison and ten years of probation. He will also need to register as a sex offender.

* Steven Griles - Deputy Secretary at the Interior Department - is the highest-ranked administration official yet convicted in the Jack Abramoff scandal. In March 2007, Griles pleaded guilty to lying about his role in the Jack Abramoff scandal. Sentenced to 10 months incarceration.

* John T. Korsmo – Chairman of the Federal Housing Finance Board from 2002 to 2004 – pleaded guilty in 2005 to lying to the Senate and an inspector general. He swore he had no idea how a list of presidents for FHFB-regulated banks were invited to a fundraiser for his friend's congressional campaign. On the invites, Korsmo was listed as the "Special Guest." Got 18 months of probation and a $5,000 fine.

* Scooter Libby - Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff - resigned after being indicted for lying to a grand jury and investigators in connection with the investigation stemming from the leak of Valerie Wilson’s covert CIA operative's identity. Convicted on four of five counts, making him the highest-ranking White House official to be convicted of a felony since the Iran-contra scandal. Sentenced to thirty months imprisonment and a fine of $250,000. On July 2nd, after a judge decided that Libby would remain in prison during the appeals process, President Bush commuted Libby's sentence by removing the thirty months in prison.

* David Safavian - former head of the Office of Federal Procurement Policy at the Office of Management and Budget - convicted of lying to ethics officials and Senate investigators about his ties to lobbyist Jack Abramoff. On October 27, 2006, he was sentenced to 18 months in prison. He is currently appealing the ruling.

* Robert Stein - former comptroller and funding officer for the now disbanded Coalition Provisional Authority, Southern Central Region in Al-Hillah, Iraq - pleaded guilty to conspiracy, bribery, conspiracy to commit money laundering, possession of a machine gun, and being a felon in possession of a fire arm. On January 30, 2007 Stein was sentenced to nine years in prison and ordered to forfeit $3.6 million.

* Roger Stillwell - desk officer, Interior Department - pleaded guilty to failing to report Redskins tickets and free dinners from Jack Abramoff.

Resigned Due to Investigation, Pending Investigation or Allegations of Impropriety


* Philip Cooney - chief of staff, White House Council on Environmental Quality - a former oil industry lawyer with no scientific expertise, Cooney resigned after it was revealed he had watered down reports on global warming.

* George Deutsch - press aide, NASA - resigned amid allegations he prevented the agency's top climate scientist from speaking publicly about global warming.

* Michael Elston - chief of staff to Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty - announced his resignation on June 15, 2007. Despite allegations that he’d threatened at least four of the eight fired US Attorneys, McNulty said Elston had served the Justice Department "with distinction for nearly eight years."

* Kyle Dustin “Dusty” Foggo - appointed executive director of the CIA, the agency’s third-highest post, in October 2004 - resigned and was ultimately indicted on bribery charges related to the Duke Cunningham scandal.

* Alberto Gonzales - former Attorney General - resigned without explanation amidst investigations of the firings of U.S. Attorneys, the politicization of the Justice Department, warrantless surveillance, and the torture and mistreatment of detainees.

 

[Joel Kaye]

* Monica Goodling - former Justice Department liaison to the White House and senior counsel to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales - resigned on April 7, 2007 amidst the investigation of the firings of U.S. Attorneys.

* Michelle Larson Korsmo - deputy chief of staff, Department of Labor - Helped her husband (see John Korsmo, above) with his donor scam. Quietly left her Labor plum job in February 2004, about two weeks before news broke that she and her husband were the targets of a criminal probe.

* Howard "Cookie" Krongard - former State Department inspector general -- accused of not properly investigating State Department contractor fraud in Iraq and Afghanistan; of retaliating against whistleblowers in his own office; and of not telling the truth about his knowledge of his brother's ties with Blackwater, a State Department contractor. Faced with a possible perjury investigation, Howard Krongard resigned on December 7, 2007.

* Julie Macdonald - former deputy assistant secretary for fish, wildlife and parks at the Interior Department - resigned in May 2007 after an "inspector general's report found she had improperly leaked information to private organizations, bullied staff scientists and broken federal rules." The Department of the Interior is investigating many of her decisions regarding endangered species; so far seven have been overturned.

* Paul McNulty - Deputy Attorney General for the Department of Justice – resigned, after questions about his involvement in the U.S. attorney firings and his testimony to Congress about the firings.

* Richard Perle - Chairman, Defense Policy Board - resigned from Pentagon advisory panel amid conflict-of-interest charges.

* Susan Ralston - assistant, White House - resigned amidst revelations that she had accepted thousands of dollars in gifts from Abramoff without compensating him, counter to White House ethics rules.

* Janet Rehnquist - inspector general, Department of Health and Human Services - resigned on June 1, 2003 in the face of an investigation into her alleged efforts to block a politically dangerous probe on behalf of the Bush family.

* James Roche - secretary, U.S. Air Force - resigned in the wake of the Boeing tanker lease scandal, after it was revealed he had rather crudely pushed for Boeing to win a $23 billion contract.

* Kyle Sampson -former chief of staff for Attorney General Alberto Gonzales - resigned amidst the investigation of the firings of U.S. Attorneys.

* Joseph Schmitz - Inspector General, Defense - Resigned amid charges he personally intervened to protect top political appointees.

* Bradley Schlozman - resigned from his third and final post with the Justice Department after accusations of actively politicizing the department. He's currently under investigation by the Department's inspector general.

* Thomas Scully - Administrator, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services - shortly after Scully resigned in 2003, an investigation by the Department of Health and Human Services inspector general found that Scully had pressured the agency's actuary to underestimate the full cost of the Medicare reform bill by approximately $100 billion until after Congress passed the bill into law. Scully was also hit with conflict of interest charges by the U.S. attorney's office for billing CMS for expenses incurred during a job search while he still headed the agency. He settled those charges by paying $9,782.

* David Smith - deputy assistant secretary for fish, wildlife, and parks, Interior Department - resigned on July 21, 2006 after shooting a buffalo and accepting its skeletal remains and meat as an illegal gratuity. He eventually paid over $3,000 for the dead buffalo, but only after the internal inquiry had commenced. The Department of Interior inspector general also noted in a May 16, 2006 report that Smith's involvement in the designation of Houston as a port of entry for imported wildlife in order to benefit a friend was inappropriate.

* John Tanner - Voting Rights Section Chief, Justice Department - resigned in December of 2007 and moved to the Office of Special Counsel for Immigration-Related Unfair Employment Practices. Already under suspicion for aiding efforts to politicize the voting section, the bumbling proponent of voter identification laws angered lawmakers with his comments that such laws actually discriminate against white voters because "minorities die first". Even more impressive was his apology for the comment. The DoJ's Office of Professional Responsibility is currently investigating his travel habits and those of his deputy.

* Sara Taylor - Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of Political Affairs at the White House, where she was Karl Rove´s top aide - resigned amidst the U.S. attorneys investigation and other probes of Rove´s alleged politicization of the government.

* Ken Tomlinson - Board Chairman, Corporation for Public Broadcasting; member, Broadcasting Board of Governors - resigned at the release of an inspector general report concluding he had broken laws in spending CPB money to hire politically connected consultants to search for "bias" without consulting the board. At BBG, a separate investigation found he was running a "horse racing operation" out of his office, and continuing to hire politically-wired individuals to do "consulting" work for him. After being nominated and serving another term, he finally stepped down from that spot earlier this year.

* Carl Truscott - Director, Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Bureau - resigned. A report by the Justice Department's inspector general found that Truscott wasted tens of thousands of dollars on luxuries, wasted millions on whimsical management decisions and violated ethics rules by ordering employees to help his nephew with a high school video project.

* Paul Wolfowitz - World Bank President - resigned in May 2007 after a committee report found that he broke ethics rules by giving his girlfriend a substantial raise.

Nomination Failed Due to Scandal

* Linda Chavez - nominated, Secretary of Labor - withdrew her nomination in January 2001 amidst revelations that an illegal immigrant lived in her home and worked for her in the early 1990s. Chavez blamed what she said were the "search-and-destroy" politics of Washington.

* Timothy Flanigan - nominated, Deputy Attorney General (also Alberto Gonzales’ top deputy at the White House) - withdrew his nomination in October 2005 amidst revelations that he'd worked closely with lobbyist Jack Abramoff when he was General Counsel for Corporate and International Law at Tyco, which was a client of Abramoff's.

* Bernard Kerik - nominated, Secretary, Department of Homeland Security - withdrew his nomination amidst a host of corruption allegations. Eventually pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor relating to improper gifts totaling tens of thousands of dollars while he was a New York City official in the late 1990's. Subsequently, on November 8, 2007, Kerik was indicted on sixteen counts for bribery, tax fraud, and false statements with a maximum sentence of 142 years and more than $5 million in fines. Kerik has pleaded not guilty. For a rundown of Kerik's myriad indiscretions, check out TPM's Ultimate Kerik Scandal List!.

* William Mercer - the former associate deputy attorney general and US Attorney for Montana - withdrew his nomination to be the permanent number three official at the Department of Justice on June 22, 2007 due to his role in the U.S. attorney firings.

* Hans von Spakovsky - Commissioner, FEC - nomination to another term after his recess appointment failed due to allegations that he'd worked at the Justice Department to suppress minority voter turnout.

Under Investigation But Still in Office

* Stuart Bowen - Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction (SIGIR) - was once admired for his successes while investigating allegations of waste and fraud in Iraq, but now employee allegations have prompted four government investigations into the Office of the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction (SIGIR).

* Lurita Doan - Administrator of the U.S. General Services Administration - still in office, despite investigations by both the Office of Special Counsel and the House oversight committee that found that Doan had "crossed the line" by suggesting that the GSA use its resources to help Republicans get elected.

* Alfonso Jackson - Secretary of Housing and Urban Development - following reports that Jackson told a business group in April 2006 that he once canceled a contract after the contractor criticized President Bush, an investigation by the HUD inspector general found that while Jackson told his deputies to favor Bush supporters, there was "no direct proof that a contract was actually awarded or rescinded because of political affiliation." A second, criminal investigation was triggered in part by Jackson's claim before Congress in May 2007 that "I don't touch contracts." That probe, now before a federal grand jury, has turned up evidence that Jackson may indeed have touched contracts - and steered them towards friends.

again - it's a tiny fraction of evidence. Bush is bad. Really bad.

 

[Barend Onneweer]

The day that scientists are able to control a person to A) do something and B) make the individual think that's what they wanted to do all along is the day that our society is going to face an enormous moral dilema.

Hey, sounds like a typical marketing campaign :whistling:

 

[Rick Darge]

They better lock that whole administration away.. I vote for Gitmo.. Waterboard Bush and Cheney everyday for the rest of their sorry lives

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Hey, sounds like a typical marketing campaign :whistling:

I would ask anyone who disagrees that Free Will is an artificial label applied after the fact how they intend to create a film that appeals to an audience.

The argument I usually hear is "Deciding what you're going to eat for lunch is bio-chemical but Moral Decisions [ed note. Aka decisions which might affect your islamic/christian salvation] are different and not based on predictable laws." Riiiiighhhhhhtttt.