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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Playback for EPIC...

Eric Lange said:
I remember YEARs ago on the set of Jim Henson’s Dark Crystal (early 1980’s), they were using Panavision systems with a video tap on each camera. This was absolutely crucial, as with the animatronics and pupeteering so many things could go wrong and totally wreck the shot. The people operating creatures (almost under the stage), were not able to see directly what they were doing so they all had to wear real time mini BW (crt) monitors strapped to their chest so they could see. Every take had to be evaluated on video playback otherwise it was virtually impossible to move forward with the (shooting) schedule.

I think with today’s VFX laden “film” making there are so many elements that have to be synched up that near real time verification will save massive amounts of time for very complicated set ups involving live action. Therefore a technically risky production can stay on schedule. Without that capability you just keep shooting almost blind and cross your fingers in the dailies. Not for nothing, simple playback will eliminate stupid and pointless continuity errors. That can get much worse with complicated sets and takes and scenes that span several days that have to be “cut” together. [helps stop the vase of flowers appearing to scoot about between takes, kind of thing.]. I think this is the only way to avoid really costly failures that were caused by one tiny thing that no-one was paying attention to. Literally from day to day that can mean the difference of hundreds of thousands of dollars (plus). I think ultimately it’s that type of capability that will have DPs and directors wanting to switch to digital from film as lot of guess work, difficulty stress and worry can be removed. I imagine that could remove a lot of tension on set right there.

Anything that maximizes efficiency eliminates risk and failure is a very good thing and makes things much more of a “no-brainer” to push the Epic button (I think).

Not to get super greedy… synched up s-3d playback right?

Cheers,

Eric
Click to expand...

This is why we use video assist systems on every shoot, stopping a camera to check a shot is not the best approach. Nor is it a good idea to monkey with your footage before it gets backed up.

Video assist can be as simple as a clam shell recorder or a AJA KiPro Mini or as elaborate as a QTake multi cam system w/ full 3D. The later offering full VFX pre-vis...all without stopping your camera from doing what it was designed to do...shoot.
 
Greg M said:
This is why we use video assist systems on every shoot, stopping a camera to check a shoot is not the best approach. Nor is it a good idea to monkey with your footage before it gets backed up.

Video assist can be as simple as a clam shell recorder or a AJA KiPro Mini or as elaborate as a QTake multi cam system w/ full 3D. The later offering full VFX pre-vis...all without stopping your camera from doing what it was designed to do...shoot.
Click to expand...

I think maybe you work in different environments than some of us...

When I'm hanging from a chopper chasing a car with the sun dropping fast, in a chase vehicle 5 miles from a video village, running through a jungle chasing animals, natives or crazy actors, guerilla style shoots in the middle of India or some hard core country, even as simple as walking around shooting my own personal stuff... on my days off... I'm not about to drag around a clamsheel and a Kipro. But If I'm sitting in a studio or finessing a shot outside with all the team around me to support me... then thats a different story.

Whats wrong with both :)

All I can say is thanks RED TEAM for pressing hard on the gas.
 
Main reason for hue & cry about playback is when you shoot 300fps and not 24fps. Atleast for 24fps you have Aja KiPro Mini(Please add support for KiPro too), For 300fps last week shoot took me to swipe the cards each shot to playback from my laptop.

Thanks for your understanding for playback and waiting for the day Jim...
 
Mark Toia said:
Whats wrong with both :)
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nothings wrong with both, and it sounds like we will have it soon. Im not suggesting it shouldn't be implemented, just that I rarely if ever use it. Although while shooting aerials, I can't imagine why you wouldn't have a playback device. If the sun is setting, why are you checking shots on the same device that should be shooting :)
 
Toia

The math is hard.

Take a really fast mac laptop. The fastest . Then have that machine with a dedicated piece of software, onboard and gpu processors pushing everything at it and 1/4 res is just practically doable.

Jam all that into a camera?

There is a reason the R1 was larger and had 8 bit on playback.

Redcode ain't prores, dvcpro or xdcam (all sort of data rate deficient and the image proves it). Redcode RAW was not made with that kind of efficient playback engine in mind. Debayering RAW files takes mathematical horsepower that is why we have the RR card.

I'm really not surprised it's tough at all. Any image playback of Redcode from a camera system is a minor miracle.

I can't imagine the coding tricks and brain power going in to making this happen.

It's not even close to easy or simple.


David.
 
Greg M said:
I can't imagine why you wouldn't have a playback device. If the sun is setting, why are you checking shots on the same device that should be shooting :)
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Hanging out the heli door, hand held camera or off a bungy rig, or on a tyler gyro or continental side mount... checking a 5 sec shot on a Red One took me about 8 seconds... Press play watch.. press exit back to record mode.. done.

Getting a guy in the front seat with a clam shell to rewind, hand it over to me for a look, me then finding a space to rest the camera I'm holding or to support it, pressing the buttons to see the playback, then handing it back and getting your hands back onto the camera and getting back into position took about at least 45 seconds to a minute... maybe more..
Done it sooooo many times and hated it with 35mm, loved it with the REDONE. Will love it even more with the EPIC.

Not every shot I do we have SPACECAM running :) I think Greg you may live in a different world to some of us.
My jobs are huge! and diverse, but maybe not as cruisey as yours :)))

We all shoot differently and all have different needs. Some don't care about in camera Playback, and others like me just love it.

I'm still prepared to wait for it though. There are always work arounds in the short term.
 
David Battistella said:
Toia

The math is hard.

Take a really fast mac laptop. The fastest and have that machine with a dedicated piece of software, inboard and gpu processors pushing everything at it and 1/4 res is practically doable.

Jam all that into a camera?

There is a reason the R1 was larger and had 8 bit on playback.

Redcode ain't prores, dvcpro or xdcam (all sort of data rate deficient and the image proves it). Redcode RAW not made with that kind of efficient playback engine in mind. Debayering RAW files takes mathematical horsepower that is why we have the RR card.

I'm really not surprised it's tough at all. Any image playback of Redcode from a camera system is a minor miracle.

I can't imagine the cding tricks and brain power going in to making this happen.

It's not even close to easy or simple.


David.
Click to expand...

I hear ya.. :)
 
Thanks for not stopping the work, even though the most badical camera in the world is now in our hands. I can wait all year for playback in cam. I'm still rockin a mad boner since the day our Epic arrived, I couldn't ask for more.
 
Greg M said:
This is why we use video assist systems on every shoot, stopping a camera to check a shoot is not the best approach. Nor is it a good idea to monkey with your footage before it gets backed up.

Video assist can be as simple as a clam shell recorder or a AJA KiPro Mini or as elaborate as a QTake multi cam system w/ full 3D. The later offering full VFX pre-vis...all without stopping your camera from doing what it was designed to do...shoot.
Click to expand...

That’s a VERY good point, but there are some things we would like full res image (up front), if possible to set up well (for extra precision… if nothing else) in the first place, a minor need compared to most perhaps.

I think the value will be for DSMC concept; for example for fashion photography etc. where you might have limited on board “memory”. With a 645 sized sensor shooting dynamic bursts at near lossless RAW that will fill media pretty quickly. So having the ability to quickly dump obviously “failed” poses or shots will be really important (I think).
 
Eric Lange said:
That’s a VERY good point, but there are some things we would like full res image (up front), if possible to set up well (for extra precision… if nothing else) in the first place, a minor need compared to most perhaps.
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so what do you mean "full res image"? Epic will only ever output 1080P for playback, you will never have full res unless you pull the media and review in something like RedCine-X
 
Greg M said:
This is why we use video assist systems on every shoot, stopping a camera to check a shoot is not the best approach. Nor is it a good idea to monkey with your footage before it gets backed up.

Video assist can be as simple as a clam shell recorder or a AJA KiPro Mini or as elaborate as a QTake multi cam system w/ full 3D. The later offering full VFX pre-vis...all without stopping your camera from doing what it was designed to do...shoot.
Click to expand...

+1 i for one feel like its nice but not crucial...Playback is a prosumer tool and feel like its has to put wear and tear on a Pro camera system that already has a Load to do. I see when perhaps im out shooting on my own and want to marvel at my own work (just kidding) well then it makes sense. But to have it means everyone on set would like to see it back please...wardrobe makeup focus puller etc...If i had it i may just say i dont...10takes a set-up 25setups a day (light day) 4day commercial...for the love of god could everyone just stay away from the camera!!! LOL...one side of it the other is bring it when you can RED
 
Greg M said:
so what do you mean "full res image"? Epic will only ever output 1080P for playback, you will never have full res unless you pull the media and review in something like RedCine-X
Click to expand...


Seriously, ever? You don’t think there’s a cat’s chance in hell we will ever be able to grab a (single) RAW(ish) frame in am more direct fashion? Again I’m thinking more of some of the hints that Jim has been making again directed a little bit more to the DSMC concept with more than an eye on the S bit.


So a little of exactly what you say..”pull the media” and review in SOMETHING like redcine-X…

Hint, hint.

In terms of general architecture (for example with MF cameras you don’t need to pull the media) to grab and review a particular frame. Thunderbolt is definitely in our future and it is my understanding that the processing systems for even Epic are not sooo rigid (that this could never be done). Providing (at some point) there is way to “talk” electronically to the camera in not such a cumbersome or disruptive way I think this will be very useful. It does not have to be super real time but just quick enough and convenient review.

It is my impression that things are written to media in a smarter way, in more binary XML type of thing, hence much greater re-workability of the format and more intelligent “random” access. It doesn’t seem like a dumb contiguous file stream to me, but maybe you know otherwise (better than me)?

Really jone'sing to eventually see what Jim has in mind.

Thanks for the input.

Eric

Also from a (self marketing) viewpoint, some form of convenient 4k review would be irresistible, but maybe that idea only appeals to people like me...(sometimes we need to show off...)
 
sergio arguello said:
hey Mate
Clamshell really? thats a bit dated dont you think? in the interim there are great solutions...
Click to expand...
haha...yes the modern clam shell. My point was its not expensive to review your shots without tying up the camera.
 
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