Platinum IRNDs on Epic = BAD

[Daniel Soderberg]

I purchased a Schneider Platinum IRND 1.8 and tested it on my Epic out in the bright sun, and it looked absolutely terrible... to the point where there was no way color correction could even help.

It desaturated the image completely except for really nasty purple/brown in the shadows. Made the shots beyond unusable...

Has anyone else seen this problem?

I've seen in a couple tests that the Hot Mirror IRND filters work the best with MX sensor, and that others may not work at all. Wondering if the Platinum IRND is on the list of not working.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I purchased a Schneider Platinum IRND 1.8 and tested it on my Epic out in the bright sun, and it looked absolutely terrible... to the point where there was no way color correction could even help.

It desaturated the image completely except for really nasty purple/brown in the shadows. Made the shots beyond unusable...

Has anyone else seen this problem?

I've seen in a couple tests that the Hot Mirror IRND filters work the best with MX sensor, and that others may not work at all. Wondering if the Platinum IRND is on the list of not working.

Daniel,

I am afraid this could be an isolated solution do to your settings or lens used at the time of capture?

The Infrared pollution with Digital sensor, and this of course goes with the Epic, Alexa is not immune neither, were if you don't make use of IR ND filters as you method of filtration, then you'll have more chances to get color shift issues, I have the entire set of standard ND filters, and since I got the full set of the new Platinum IRND filters form Schneider, I am much happier.

So IMO something must went wrong here, and I remain firmly of the opinion that IR filtration is a must, and till the new sensor with the incorporated IR filter is out, I will continue to make good use of the IRND filters, and so should any one that wishes to eliminate or at list alleviate by large Post work, which at times is much more difficult to fix, and time consuming just the same, which time is of course money you could have spent else were, or time you could have spent doing better things.

Stacking is something we all do, but I always advice strongly against it, as each Glass element you introduce in front of your lens is an added layer of filtration to the lens itself and its qualities, plus the chances of getting Ghosting and other artifacts, for this I have and recommend the all set, so that you use the strongest ND needed for the job, avoiding stacking when possible.

 

[Daniel Soderberg]

Daniel,

I am afraid this could be an isolated solution do to your settings or lens used at the time of capture?

The Infrared pollution with Digital sensor, and this of course goes with the Epic, Alexa is not immune neither, were if you don't make use of IR ND filters as you method of filtration, then you'll have more chances to get color shift issues, I have the entire set of standard ND filters, and since I got the full set of the new Platinum IRND filters form Schneider, I am much happier.

So IMO something must went wrong here, and I remain firmly of the opinion that IR filtration is a must, and till the new sensor with the incorporated IR filter is out, I will continue to make good use of the IRND filters, and so should any one that wishes to eliminate or at list alleviate by large Post work, which at times is much more difficult to fix, and time consuming just the same, which time is of course money you could have spent else were, or time you could have spent doing better things.

Stacking is something we all do, but I always advice strongly against it, as each Glass element you introduce in front of your lens is an added layer of filtration to the lens itself and its qualities, plus the chances of getting Ghosting and other artifacts, for this I have and recommend the all set, so that you use the strongest ND needed for the job, avoiding stacking when possible.

Thanks for the response Ketch.

It sounds like you aren't seeing what I am seeing with the Platinum IRNDs.

I am using Zeiss Super Speeds (Mark II) and have not touched any color settings... Pulling the Platinum IRND out, brings me back to perfect saturated, non-brown blacks...

Anyone else?

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Yes, I have seen this with the Platinum IRNDs in combination with the Epic. I believe it was the 1.8 we had issues with on a shoot as well. I still need to go back and do some tests to see if I can recreate this problem. The only thing that solved it that day was using regular NDs with a hot mirror in front. It was a national Titleist golf spot and some of the player's clothing was shifting quite a bit. YMMV.

 

[Evin Grant]

I've been using the Formatt Hot mirror combo filters since the R1MX and I've never found a better ND solution. I do use Schneider for pretty much everything else but no-one has made any better HM/ND combos than Formatt.

 

[Daniel Soderberg]

Yes, I have seen this with the Platinum IRNDs in combination with the Epic. I believe it was the 1.8 we had issues with on a shoot as well. I still need to go back and do some tests to see if I can recreate this problem. The only thing that solved it that day was using regular NDs with a hot mirror in front. It was a national Titleist golf spot and some of the player's clothing was shifting quite a bit. YMMV.

Thanks Steve. That's interesting that it was the 1.8 for you too... Weird.

I find it interesting that people are coming back with mixed results... You'd think it would be a consistent positive or negative experience. I don't see how the image the Platinum IRND could be seen by anyone as a good looking image...

Thanks Evin for confirming that the Hot Mirror Filter is working great for you.

Anyone else?

 

[Phil Holland]

I've been using the Formatt Hot mirror combo filters since the R1MX and I've never found a better ND solution. I do use Schneider for pretty much everything else but no-one has made any better HM/ND combos than Formatt.

+1,000,000 Tested literally every option on the market minus the newest IRND options from Formatt. I use the same HMND filters Evin uses. They make happy images.

 

[Kyle Gentz]

Phil, Do you have a list of what filters those may be?

 

[Vico Martin]

Yes, they develop the platinum series only to use with Alexa; I Report this to Schneider months ago after a disaster On-Set.

Thanks for post this image Phil.

 

[Daniel Soderberg]

Yes, they develop the platinum series only to use with Alexa; I Report this to Schneider months ago after a disaster On-Set.

Thanks for post this image Phil.

Thanks Vico! Sounds like some Platinum IRNDs ruined your shots as well with Epic.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

IR variables

IR variables

RED MX OLPF/IR filter and processing algorithms are a different animal than what ARRI uses on the Alexa. Each system has its own design parameters that attempt to account for IR in different ways. Some believe that the Alexa has better skin tones because they manage IR and the visible red wavelengths near IR in a better way.

IAC, because the specific cut off wavelength (and slope) ideal for each system is different, for best results one needs to match their filter choice to the camera system. Some rental houses actually have a set marked "for RED" and another "for Alexa". IIRC the Platinum IRNDs are optimized for the Alexa, but before you put your cash on the line I strongly suggest browsing articles on this subject by Art Adams, Evin Grant, Phil Holland, Geoff Boyle, etc to evaluate empirical tests.

FWIW I use a Schneider 750 Tru-cut hot mirror in the first stage and regular NDs behind that in bright exteriors with good results. As Ketch noted, the downside of that approach is more surfaces and more glass in the optical path. If you do a lot of exterior shooting on RED MX and rarely shoot on the Alexa, getting the Formatt combo filters that Evin recommends should fix you right up. My preference is to accept the risk of having one more piece of glass in exchange for not having to carry 2 complete sets of combo filters, plus perhaps another full set for other manufacturers or the next generation of sensors. I'd rather just have one IR only filter per use case so as the tech moves forward I'm buying one new filter at a time rather than six. YMMV.

Cheers - #19

 

[Stivan Widick]

Thanks for that advice, Blair. Seems very sensible for now.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil, Do you have a list of what filters those may be?

That's the 1.8 Formatt Hot Mirror ND Combo filter providing the good results up there.

The IR polluted ND image I think was a standard Schneider ND at 1.8. If I tossed a hot mirror in front of that, you would see much better results.

 

[LukaszPruchnik]

I used to have a set of Schneiders but got rid of them for this particular reason. I noticed that when using Schneider NDs the image would turn a bit purple/brown.

See the attached test, NO IR

Left-Schneider ND 1.2
Right - Tiffen ND 1.2

Shot on Zeiss Bspeeds

 

[Mick van Rossum NSC]

One of the worst things I ever bought. Totally ruined some bright sunlit scenes for a movie, hardly any color to grade and a purple hue. I had no problems with it on an Alexa shoot, but apparently it has to do with the IR sensitivity of the Epic chip which is different than an Alexa (720-750). I spoke to a woman from Schneider at IBC , she did not have any solution (was not very helpful either). Hopefully this will be solved with the new OLPF on the Dragon. Till then it is Formatt I guess.

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

Formatt seems to be the best for me... never had anything go wrong with them so far.

 

[Caleb Heymann]

Would love to hear from someone who's worked with the new Formatt Prostop filters, which look great because they seem to have the same reflective properties on the outside as a normal ND filter.

 

[Daniel Soderberg]

I hear that the Formatt Hot Mirror NDs are great, but what about other brand Hot Mirror NDs. Experiences?

 

[Jason Osterday]

Funny we just finished a show where the heavy Schneider ND's (1.5 and up) were the talk of the gig for giving major purple/brown shifts. Their platinum IRs were also causing shifts and we finally stuck with Formatts for run of show after analyzing them. Here's what I've found:

- Any Schneider ND beyond N9 has a shift with MX or Epic toward magenta with a brown cast in the shadows. These tend to be fine on Alexa. Schneider will report the same thing if you call them and request support.
- Tiffen seem to have a slight cyan shift.
- We have had good luck with Tiffen IR and Formatt IR but TruCut 750 Schneider has same issues with magenta casts and color shifts. Found the 750 to be relatively good on Alexa with fewer problems.
- Formatt appear most neutral but have been more prone to cracks, chips and higher chance of reading off their marked stop (an N3 not being a full stop difference). Also received a couple in one set that had a slight deformation on one layer of glass where there was a raised section near the middle that could lead to reflection/refraction issues with the right stop and focal length.
- Formatt are great for owner operator but very difficult to sell to some productions and DP's due to years of recognition for Tiffen and Schneider. I can tell you how many times I have to get scientific about the Formatt's and their good performance just to get them on set. It's an uphill battle.

my .02. YMMV

 

[Will Keir]

You most likely already did this but it could be as simple as facing the correct side furthest away from the lens. Are you positive you had them in the correct direction? Facing the sun with the IR surface? I believe only one side is coated.

Anyone else?