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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Plagiarism...

Joseph Hutson

Joseph Hutson

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So, a couple of years ago, I shot my first short film, "Leave Me".


http://vimeo.com/4220803

Apparently, my friend and Co-Writer, Ryan Dunlap, was contacted by a Chinese individual. This individual claimed that their "co-writer forgot he had seen Leave Me" and it may have been an influence on their short film, "Shutter Love" Some influence, huh?

Somebody decided to make a side-by-side video which is quite comical to see the copy...


I guess the original short film is getting popular enough that someone decided to create a version with Chinese Subtitles and has received almost 1.4M views in the last 20 days... http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/52968182-1361952270.html

Anyway, I guess it's much more comical than upsetting to see their "attempt" at sounding honest...but not seeming so in the end.

It is also cool to me, the power of film. How it crosses culture and language barriers to continue spreading a message.

I'd be interested in hearing your take on this if you were in this situation as a filmmaker. Has something like this happened to you?
 
haha... not sure how i feel about that. i remember first seeing this a long time ago, great little short. like you said, at least you guys made a powerful film that continues to influence. kind of a funny situation, thanks for keeping us up to date and keeping a good attitude.

i would probably ask them to give you guys credit in their film and wherever it's posted. i'm not sure i'd have them take it down because they might be able to reach a different audience than you've been able to, which i would think would be a positive thing, but they should at least implicitly say that this is the asian version of 'leave me', don't you think? and they should have asked permission in the first place... but whatever. you could obviously press charges and whatever and whatever, but that seems kinda silly in this situation, and it wouldn't really help anyone. but i would ask them to very obviously give you guys full credit for the original concept and images, with at least a direct link.
 
OK, there is nothing to be upset about here. You can't copyright an idea. How do you think SyFy channel is getting away with making their own version of "Blockbuster" films that release the same weekend with practically the same title? (Recently see Almighty Thor and Thor)

That said ... it would be fair for them to give you a credit in their film, since they acknowledge that they may have been influenced by your film. I think WGA rules would give you a "Based on a story by" or an "inspired by" credit. Whatever it is, I think the money associated is a pittance even on a major feature. I forget the details and I may be plain old wrong... WGA negotiation is not what I do.

Even as far as that goes ... its a short and there is no money at stake, so don't worry.

BTW - if they are Chinese there is effectively 0% chance that you could prosecute them no matter how much money is at stake, even if their film was a shot by shot copy with the exact translated dialog and you could prove they wrote and shot it after yours.
 
came up with an idea for a film festival for colleges featuring extreme sports films( it was 1995) coupled with music and skate demos....the site is still up..http://zer0gravity.com/

a couple of years later after much leg work i got it going, MTV called me and wanted to cover it, i spoke to them 6 times in conference calls about all my plans and exact configuration, they bailed at the last minute and never showed up, 6 months later they launched MTV Sports and Music Festival...

shit happens...keep your ideas close to you unless you want them made by someone else....

i got stories like this for days...

dino
 
Joseph,

I learned from my mentor and friend, Kevin Althans (DP and VFX Supervisor at Radium/ReelFX), that if someone 'steals' your idea you should feel flattered. It means it had such an impact on them that they decided to make their own version of it!

I'd show you an example of exactly what another production company did with a video that I helped shoot (and that won and Addy), but I'm not one to embarrass the other prod. company. I've known them for awhile and it wouldn't be right for me to do so. But if you look up "Dallas Cowboys - Anthem" video and then watch a baseball video, you'll see shot for shot, narration for narration, color grade for color grade, that they in fact repeated the idea.

This happens all the time. Feel flattered that it has been remade but for another part of the world...that's a huge accomplishment!
 
Art stops belonging to the artist the moment they put it on display. You have to expect that if you make a good piece of art (and I ADORED your short film, extremely well done) that it will be copied...usually by people less talented but sometimes by people even more talented. Just the way it is. I do think it is proper to credit your influences though.
 
i'm pretty sure you can copyright ideas. jim knows a lot about that, ask him.
 
paulherrin said:
i'm pretty sure you can copyright ideas. jim knows a lot about that, ask him.
Click to expand...

not everyone can afford to do that with all of their ideas.....jim, in fact, can.
 
it's federal law. doesn't even require registration. there are certain copyrights and patents that someone like jim uses that do require such, but any work released in tangible form is protected by federal copyright laws, which are honored at least in part by many other countries with which we have agreements, including china. "ideas" can sometimes fall into a gray area, depending on their presentation and tangibility. but if there was money involved in this project (and especially if it was american made), i don't think there would be too much thought involved in making a settlement.

for this situation, i wouldn't worry too much about any of that, and just be flattered... and ask for credit.

i wouldn't feel very good about myself if i was the copier, especially without asking permission and giving implicit credit. i do happen to be a big fan of original ideas, though i do enjoy adaptations from other formats, or a remake that needs to be remade...
 
It doesn't take much of a search to discover that you can NOT copyright ideas. A quick quote from the U.S. Copyright Office web site:

"How do I protect my idea?
Copyright does not protect ideas, concepts, systems, or methods of doing something. You may express your ideas in writing or drawings and claim copyright in your description, but be aware that copyright will not protect the idea itself as revealed in your written or artistic work."
 
thanks for the heads up terry ;)

read the whole thing and study some copyright legislation and rulings, then i'll listen to snarky comments about it. you might even be able to google search that.
 
paulherrin said:
thanks for the heads up terry ;)

read the whole thing and study some copyright legislation and rulings, then i'll listen to snarky comments about it. you might even be able to google search that.
Click to expand...

If I take your meaning Paul, i.e. that Terry's quote from the US Copyright office is misguided or incomplete ... then sorry Paul, you are just plain wrong on this one.

You can't copyright, trademark or patent ideas.

If you aren't going to believe the US Copyright Office, I don't know if I can change your mind.

I am not a lawyer, but I know a few and I've been through hurdles related to this in the past on several projects.

This is not legal advice, and you'd be stupid to take it as such. Its just an explanation of my understanding.

You may be confused by the protection for derivative ideas.

The derivative clauses wouldn't prevent anyone from making TV shows about the captain and science officer of a paramilitary ship on an exploration cruise.

It would protect against someone writing and producing their own stories about Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock on the Federation starship Enterprise.

So ... the idea can not be protected, but the expression - and even components of the expression - can be protected. (So ... no stories about Mr. Spock either, even without the starship or Kirk!)

What is fair in Joseph's situation and what is legal are separate. Morally, they should give credit. The Chinese film makers are however completely within their rights. Their film was different enough that it was reasonable to produce it. If either project were a for profit film (i.e. if there were provable damages), Joseph and his partner would have standing to sue them for infringement - and the outcome would not be clear!

Hence my earlier babbling about the WGA arbitration - basically they could settle out of court for some small fees and credit.

Now ... let's try and amp this up a few notches.

Let's say Joseph and his partner had written a bigger script based on this idea. They tried to sell it, and succeeded, getting $200,00 against a million. Then the studio sees the Chinese film and decides not to make the picture based on that.

Now we have $800,000 USD in damages, which is a sizable tort and they could very well sue the Chinese film makers.

The Chinese film makers would have to make them "whole" which means they'd either have to come up with the $800,000 or make it so that Joseph and partner could proceed with their deal. The cheap way of dealing with that is for the Chinese film makers to credit Joseph, his partner and their earlier film, plus disclaim in writing the copyrights to the script and new film. In other words they could clear the way for Joseph's feature film to be made. If this process took a long time the Chinese film makers might be on the hook for things like lost interest on the money joseph wasn't paid, and other fees and penalties.

Now finally - its true that China has laws on their books that are compatible with WIPO treaties, but China is also notorious for not enforcing those laws against their own citizens.
 
paulherrin said:
thanks for the heads up terry ;)

read the whole thing and study some copyright legislation and rulings, then i'll listen to snarky comments about it. you might even be able to google search that.
Click to expand...

Not sure why it sounded snarky - didn't mean to be. It's just fact. And, yes, if I were going to base some important business decisions on it, I'd certainly do more research. However, I don't think this basic premise will change - you can't copyright an idea - only the expression of it.
 
right, right. it's all good. but mind that this or any short film definitely counts as an expression of an idea. if someone had made a poem that used the same concepts, that might be harder to judge, but when someone else makes a short film that is almost entirely the same like this... it's a pretty straightforward violation of copyright. course i'm not a judge on the matter, and like i said, there doesn't appear to be money involved. so the respectful thing to do is for them to at the very least offer credit, an apology, and a link to the original video. and it probably would have been totally cool had they asked permission in the first place.
 
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