Peter Jackson clips and grabs...

[gurney]

Its a tough decision to open this test footage up to you guys, and if it keeps getting critiqued for what its supposed to be, that decision is gonna start going the other way.

OK, it's honorable and laudable to post these stills at this early stage, and it does open them up to criticism. But the team knew that, and threatening to take away your toys and go home if people call out artifacts is not respectable. If you don't want them picked apart, then they damn well shouldn't have been posted.

After looking through it, anyone can see that the last thing this board needs is more mindless cheerleading. The groundless naysayers are annoying and occasionally maladjusted, but one "AWESOME!" message after another simply results in 15-page-long threads that contain very little productive discussion. Furthermore, this juvenile fawning embarrasses and undermines the credibility of Red supporters, some of whom take an objective, hopeful, but discerning view of the product.

These images reveal some shortcomings. Deny it to yourself if you want, but deny it to those with open eyes and your credibility will be zero. The point of an "open" development project is to obtain useful feedback, and an analysis of these images is useful feedback.

Did people consider that perhaps there are aspects of the encoding that can be tweaked at the expense of others? Some kinds of artifacts that result from allocating bits against others? Then the Red team needs to know what kind of problems are going to result in negative reactions from us.

If all you're going to do is shout "Hooray! OMFG! That's totally awesome! Perfect! Ship it!", then Jannard and company are wasting their time monitoring this board or sharing anything with us.

 

[Ace]

OK, it's honorable and laudable to post these stills at this early stage, and it does open them up to criticism. But the team knew that, and threatening to take away your toys and go home if people call out artifacts is not respectable. If you don't want them picked apart, then they damn well shouldn't have been posted.

After looking through it, anyone can see that the last thing this board needs is more mindless cheerleading. The groundless naysayers are annoying and occasionally maladjusted, but one "AWESOME!" message after another simply results in 15-page-long threads that contain very little productive discussion. Furthermore, this juvenile fawning embarrasses and undermines the credibility of Red supporters, some of whom take an objective, hopeful, but discerning view of the product.

These images reveal some shortcomings. Deny it to yourself if you want, but deny it to those with open eyes and your credibility will be zero. The point of an "open" development project is to obtain useful feedback, and an analysis of these images is useful feedback.

Did people consider that perhaps there are aspects of the encoding that can be tweaked at the expense of others? Some kinds of artifacts that result from allocating bits against others? Then the Red team needs to know what kind of problems are going to result in negative reactions from us.

If all you're going to do is shout "Hooray! OMFG! That's totally awesome! Perfect! Ship it!", then Jannard and company are wasting their time monitoring this board or sharing anything with us.

Well, Since youve posted so many constructive posts, I guess youd care to enlighten us some more with your useful feedback?

If you care to see constructive feedback then perhaps you should practice what you preach. I have not seen one constructive comment from you on this board thus far.

And where do you get off making fun of compliments to the RED team on their fruitful footage? Most posters on this board have been involved in rigourous constructive discussion regarding the camera for nearly a year now. They will recieve criticism when its due. As far as this footage is concerned, its a token from the redteam to those who couldnt make it to see the 4K versions. This isnt technical footage and isnt a final test, and we all seem to understand this concept except you. Chill out. The footage IS awesome.

 

[Poi Boy]

I understand your point but I have shown these stills to a lot of talented pros and without fail they are blow away. stills always have flaws that you can not see in moving images, no matter it it is film or video.
-A

 

[Jannard]

It is a delicate balance between sharing early footage and not. That's why other companies do not. We have chosen to, but it is a bit frustrating to read some of the posts that make assumptions not based in fact. Then we are spending our time on the defense and trying to explain every situation. Right now, we need to let people know that we are well on the way. We are not finished yet. To engage in details at this point is time spent that we just don't have with our limited team. If you are encouraged by the footage posted, great. If there are things you don't like... we are probably working on them or have already worked on them. If you really want answers to every detail and don't feel you are getting them right now, sorry. Wait until you are happy before you buy, or just don't buy. Pretty simple.

Jim

 

[Drew Mylrea]

If these frames were really shot at 2 stops under and pushed in post - then the small artifacts that we are seeing are actually really low and impressive for a CMOS sensor (I think, here is my reasoning); I just pushed some Canon 20D Raw images up 2 stops in Photoshop and I got MUCH more noise than is exhibited in these frames.

EDIT: Jim, I am behind you guys 100 million percent and trust that you want this camera to be as bad ass as all of us do. I feel privileged to be a part of the proccess and look forward to the updates on a daily basis.

 

[Emanuel A.]

I didn't watch yet. Dial-up here by now. However, IMHO maybe it's just a question of final adjustements or even digital look. Regarding to me and my former experience unitil now, if you deliver a similar product than F900 CineAlta, I wouldn't mind to shoot with 'such defects' during the rest of my shooter life.

On the other hand, I remember when HVX came, there was who bought. And others like me who thought that acquisition device had no the basic requirements that we were looking for.

If you are interested to improve and you have time and development for such achievement, why not? I don't think this discussion may be a danger for the RED interests. There's no perfection anywhere.

 

[Ace]

I didn't watch yet. Dial-up here by now. However, IMHO maybe it's just a question of final adjustements or even digital look. Regarding to me and my former experience unitil now, if you deliver a similar product than F900 CineAlta, I wouldn't mind to shot with 'such defects' during the rest of my shooter life.

On the other hand, I remember when HVX came, there was who bought. And others like me who thought that acquisition device had no the basic requirements that we were looking for.

If you are interested to improve and you have time and development for such achievement, why not? I don't think this discussion may be a danger for the RED interests. There's no perfection anywhere.

Wait till you see the clip. There are no defects. The defects seem to be idiosyncratically linked to a couple of still captures for undetermined reasons.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Thanks for the confidence of your words, Ace. I have no reasons to doubt. After all, RED is already part of the family. And some of you seem to me like brothers. Would/will Jim be our grand-father? ;-) No way. He's just so young as ourselves and our (sorry Jim but not only yours! ) baby... LOL

 

[gurney]

Well, Since youve posted so many constructive posts, I guess youd care to enlighten us some more with your useful feedback?

If you care to see constructive feedback then perhaps you should practice what you preach. I have not seen one constructive comment from you on this board thus far.

So? How many empty-headed "OMFG!" posts do I have to make before I've earned your badge of respectability? Your reply was the typical, specious response made by someone who doesn't really have any ground to stand on.

You want an example of constructive? Take a look at Brook's post with the 20D image earlier in this thread. That image does show interestingly similar distortion (although we could use some more details about the source image).

And in your capacity as spokesman for "the rest of us", you should have noted the other people who brought up concerns about the stills. Try actually reading the posts.

 

[Jannard]

gurney... looks like you still have a few to go. And your response to my post? Are you really interested in constructive criticism or stirring it up? Just an honest question...

Jim

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

There's no criticism of my own work I hate more than: "Awesome!" "Perfect!" "Great job!' "Really sweet!". Because I always know what's wrong with it and if I know the flaws are really obvious then I feel like people are being dishonest about my work.

I just try to extend the same courtesy. It's a shame the RED project has fallen under such unwarranted criticism that you guys feel you have to get so defensive about everything you release and every image becomes a "Well maybe this'll be the last one" scenario.

I think the best steps you could take in the future to ensure things stay civil are:
1) Keep releasing tons of material to even the odds
2) Be clear and concise from the onset about where you think something is pretty close to where you want it and what you know needs improvement.

There need to be some set out ground rules for discussion or else you can only expect to hear it all. People are going to make judgements. whether they voice their criticisms or not. It's up to you as producers to set the framework for what conclusions can be reached if any.

We know we know this is a whole new world of customer interaction and we're all learning as we go along.

 

[Ace]

So? How many empty-headed "OMFG!" posts do I have to make before I've earned your badge of respectability? Your reply was the typical, specious response made by someone who doesn't really have any ground to stand on.

Take it elsewhere mate. I asked where were your constructive posts.

You want an example of constructive? Take a look at Brook's post with the 20D image earlier in this thread. That image does show interestingly similar distortion (although we could use some more details about the source image).

Again, where are your constructive posts?

And in your capacity as spokesman for "the rest of us", you should have noted the other people who brought up concerns about the stills. Try actually reading the posts.

LOL. Okay. Seems like your the one who isnt reading the posts.

The concerns regarding artifacting were valid. They were aired and were discussed. Greame addressed these issues in his posts. Great. Those shouting "Awesome" and "Great" knew exactly what was going on in the imagery and did not feel the need to interrogate. But you on the other hand seem hellbent on calling these people out and shutting them up. Albeit that you have made no posts of your own and have offered no constructive criticism so far. Reduser isnt a book, it isnt a magazine, this a forum. Contribute or put up.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Hahaha I wouldn't mind an OMFG! filter myself. Jim likes 'em so I say make sure to leave them in to keep him motivated. But it can be tiresome to find new posts of interest when one is short on time.

While we're at it can we develop a viewing option that filters out the:

'Lame...'
'SHUT UP HATER!'

Sub topics as well?

 

[Brook Willard]

If people want more of my original photo, here is a 30% scale of a 100% crop.

 

[casey warren]

If people want more of my original photo, here is a 30% scale of a 100% crop.

Was it hot that day? I think some of the reason the background imagery is really soft might be due to the heat waves rising from the ground.

I've taken lots of video + still images when its been really hot outside I and have wondered why some of the backgrounds looked wierd, but then I realized it was from the heat waves close to the ground.

 

[Ace]

There's no criticism of my own work I hate more than: "Awesome!" "Perfect!" "Great job!' "Really sweet!". Because I always know what's wrong with it and if I know the flaws are really obvious then I feel like people are being dishonest about my work.

Gavin, I totally agree with you. This is why I make a concious decision never to show clients or friends, unfinished works in progress. Its a risk. And Reds taken that risk and have taken great value through feedback and critique.

However, me along with many other people are holding back full critique untill RED releases finalised test footage from fully enabled cameras and as you mentioned, releasing a larger variety of test footage. Otherwise, we would only be criticising Peters work.. Or Perhaps Jabez's work.. Or the CC guys work.. Or Weta's work.. or the guy who captured the stills work.. etc etc.

Until then, we dont really have enough data for legitimate peer review and scrutiny.

 

[gurney]

gurney... looks like you still have a few to go. And your response to my post? Are you really interested in constructive criticism or stirring it up?

Few to go with what? Your post is even-tempered and reasonable, exactly what people should hope for. Those who shout down anybody who brings up the slightest challenge do not serve the cause of quality or effective development.

I'm sure it is frustrating to have to defend incomplete work. But when companies issue beta software to testers, they do not attack those testers for filing bug reports. Quite to the contrary, they are happy to know that people are looking at it with a critical eye.

Ever been to DPReview.com and checked out the forums there? You see very similar behavior in that and other Internet forums: Anyone who raises the shadow of a doubt about a product gets pummeled with strident whines of "Troll! Troll!" just because people don't want to feel uncomfortable about their own purchasing decision. So they want to bury anything they perceive to be dissent, and they try to shame any discordant voice into silence by claiming that "everyone else gets it." That was done here, and it's easily discredited. And that's just another example of what I mean by "juvenile."

It's disheartening to see people sooo meek and afraid to post a question regarding something they have concerns about, and to have their reluctance validated by bullies. If nobody can air their concerns without fear of reprisal, then this ceases to be a useful forum.

I neither attacked the Red effort nor dismissively said, "This sucks." I suggested that tweaks might be needed, and that real feedback is useful to you guys. I gave Brook credit for an interesting post. So one guy was so shaken up by my suggestions that he lashed out. Too bad.

 

[Brook Willard]

Nah, it wasn't too hot. What you're seeing shows up in other images with that lens at 300mm as well.

Gurney... you're not making any friends here. Three posts and you're knocking on our members, our forum... come off it, man. There *is* a way to have a proper discussion without stirring up the hornet's nest. Blame it on others if you want, but fix it yourself.

Let's stay friendly, constructive and interesting.

 

[casey warren]

Nah, it wasn't too hot. What you're seeing shows up in other images with that lens at 300mm as well.

I see.

 

[Ace]

So one guy was so shaken up by my suggestions that he lashed out. Too bad.

I was neither shaken or stirred h34r:

Your initial post came accross as rude and insulting, your use of language was more befitting elsewhere.

All in all, take a read at your first post and think this over.