People telling me not to buy a Red. Why?

[Arthur Woo]

I would rent the camera you're thinking about buying for a shoot and put it through its paces. Do you like the weight, the menus, the form factor, the low light and highlight sensitivity, the ability to process the image in post - all things to look at when making a decision about a camera purchase. Since I freelance I shoot on all the major cameras. Not every camera is appropriate for every job. Also, owning allows you to mess around a lot more, experiment, and get to know the camera inside out. A $20k investment for a full working package isn't bad if you can afford it - I wouldn't rely on trying to rent the camera out for income since the market is so saturated.

That said, I purchased a RED four years ago because I loved the image. It's been a great camera for me and have never regretted the decision to buy into RED.

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

plenty of good advices, i'll just share my experience :0),
Jim wrote a few years back, when he feels down and nothing comes the way you want , he just fires his epic and according to him, 'goes to heaven', i tried this, and it fuckin works, every time.
i take my Epic go outside , shoot some shit bring it back and look at it - fuckin awesome!
And i tried this with many different cameras , they don't do this magic,
or maybe i just need to add more cardio, to get rid of extra estrogen
if you want it, and you can afford it, and this will not financially cripple you - buy it!
​

 

[Zack Birlew]

I just purchased a RED One MX for my upcoming feature project. I had planned on using my new Sony A7S with Shogun for the movie but wanted RAW for our VFX scenes so I got an inexpensive RED One MX and kitted it up a bit with some used SSDs and third party support and batteries, good package for 99% of what I would do with it even if it were my only camera. Have I filmed anything with it yet? No, not really. Too busy writing and planning for the movie. Am I a DP? No, I'm a director who shoots so my priorities are divided. Now, I have some YouTube stuff I want to do in my spare time so I picked up a Sony AX100 at a pawn shop. Have I filmed with that? Yeah! I've filmed a few practice videos and some stock footage. Why'd I film with it? Well, I could pick it up and use it in those situations and for the most part just turn it on and go. Plus I don't have to process it or anything before working with it. I wish I could say the same with my RED One but it's just not the first camera I would reach for these days. If I had an Epic it'd be the same deal but a Scarlet W or Raven might be different with the Prores factor. There was a time when I would use only my RED One but there's options now and good ones too! If you're a dedicated DP then you really should get a RED, in my opinion, RAW is just such a powerful tool but, like your personal friends and acquaintances who use other tools suggest, you should look at it from their point of view and what they're doing compared to you. I've bumped into a few different rental places to check for used gear and they kind of give the same advice of a Canon C300 or Panasonic GH4 but for events and quick turnarounds, those are what you go for, predominantly for budgetary reasons, and because they're beautiful and they're proven to work without a hitch for newbies and pros alike. Not to say that a RED isn't easy to use or couldn't be used to make some beautiful footage for this kind of work, but it's a different workflow and time/money/skill investment level. Honestly, I wish I could get a Scarlet W or even an 8K Weapon but I can't wait and I'm good with 4K as it is with my other cameras. This is my opinion and my experience so hopefully there's something in there to help you out, overall I'd say it all comes down to what you're doing and what your preferred shooting style is like.

 

[David Peterson]

1) I think part of it is people think I am too much of an amature to get this professsional grade equipment. I would maybe take that in some kind of a personal way, but you haven't seen my work. you are just basing that on the fact that I don't make my living in the film industry.


2) I am realizing that this is a field where traditionally people worked their way up from Production Assistant to Second AC, to First AC, then to DP. This would take something like 5 years. I think there is resentment to see people buying expensive gear flooding the field with new people all competing for a few jobs.


3) I think a good chunk of people have the attitude of commercial artists that the gear *must* pay for itself.

No, I think you've got it all wrong. The root of where it is coming for many people (or at least it is for me) I'd guess is a concern that you could be wasting your money (thus why I highlighted the point of a person's financial situation matters a lot, as blowing a few tens of thousand of dollars on a flight of fancy for one person could be the same as another person having a twenty dollar flutter.).

As there is a massive amount of a learning a person could do with "cheaper" gear. As in the long run, the specifics of a camera matter less than some of us think, as it is but a tool that comes and goes as time marches forward and something else becomes the hot new camera plaything of the moment (remember when the RED One MX was the bee's knees? Now it can be got for a song, yet of course still is a solid camera in its own right).

As what matters most is not the learning of all the intricacies of the ins and out of a particular tool, as learning *everything else* that all goes around (i.e. the art of cinematography, and craft of being a DoP), that comes first, then afterwards comes learning the finer details of whatever is the hot flavor of the moment tool. Important point to keep in mind especially if you're taking a 10yr plus outlook on this, rather than just scratching the itch of right here and now.

 

[Mark K.]

Honestly, if you want spend money on equipment to improve your cinematography skills, buy lights and grip. They're the tools that will actually allow you to develop a visual style and control your imagery.

Cameras are cheap, a little Blackmagic Pocket Camera makes beautiful images if you light them well. I'd suggest sticking with a cheap and cheerful camera at first and look to build a bit of a lighting kit instead.

The light is everything.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

This ^

Or, what I said on page 2.

 

[David Peterson]

Honestly, if you want spend money on equipment to improve your cinematography skills, buy lights and grip. They're the tools that will actually allow you to develop a visual style and control your imagery.

Cameras are cheap, a little Blackmagic Pocket Camera makes beautiful images if you light them well. I'd suggest sticking with a cheap and cheerful camera at first and look to build a bit of a lighting kit instead.

The light is everything.

This x1000!

I'd take a Sony FS7 or URSA Mini, or even BMPCC, with a full G&E kit over bare RED even if it is the latest and greatest.

This sums up yet another reason why people might warn off getting a RED, as people can spend so much on a RED brain (which is but the start of kitting it out...) they've got next to nothing left for the many other areas: audio/lighting/support/etc

A good kit is a well rounded kit without big gaping weaknesses, not a lopsided one with all your money poured into the latest RED brain! If that means you need to settle for a cheap Raven, or R1 MX, or even a BMPCC, then so be it! You'll be better off overall.

 

[Justin Cardoza]

Red has been stepping up these past 2 years so I don't understand why someone will not invest in a Red.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Cameras are cheap, a little Blackmagic Pocket Camera makes beautiful images if you light them well.

FWIW I am still thinking of buying a BMPCC for a specific type of photography. Cool little camera.

This sums up yet another reason why people might warn off getting a RED, as people can spend so much on a RED brain (which is but the start of kitting it out...) they've got next to nothing left for the many other areas: audio/lighting/support/etc

Nobody is saying that micro budget films need RED or Panavision cameras. That would be silly.

 

[Raj Dye]

But I think the equation is this: if you cannot afford to drop 4x the cost of a basic RED kit on everything that's going to make it actually production-ready: computers, monitors,media, storage, lighting, grip, lensing, support, microphones, sound recorders, etc., then buying a RED at this point might actually interfere with actually getting you where you need to go.

Good point. This kind of advice makes sense to me. I have already a pretty good sound package for narrative or ENG. I have a modest lighting package. I have computers up the yang including 15 TB RAID storage. I have some Milvus primes and a set Canon L series lenses. As for grip stuff, I may have to rent a lot of that.

I know that most people that gave me that advice didn't know I have all this gear. I guess I was just a little shocked that they think I don't know what I am doing. And I think there is an element where people think because I am asking for advice, that I am totally lost, which is not the case.

Advice is a tricky thing to give and to receive and apply. So with your statement above you are actually giving me some context by telling me that you own multiple Red cameras. I realize that you did not exactly ask me what gear I have, but suggested I ask myself the question.

I want to shoot beautiful looking documentaries with engaging stories.Buying a Red camera will help me with that. When people tell me not to buy a Red, I am translating that in my head to “You need to shoot more shitty looking documentaries first. Only then should you try to make a beautiful looking documentary” Now I am realizing that is a misunderstanding.

What I am hearing from you, Michael, is "Go make the most beautiful documentary! Go do it. Keep in mind though you will need a hellofa lot more than just a Red package." Thanks!

Thanks for everyone giving me advice in this thread. I am understanding a lot better where such advice is coming from. I am realizing that someone telling me not to get Red is not necessarily as negative as it first sounded.

Also, I feel like now I have figured out how to apply it to my situation. I'm kitting out my A7S II and doing some test shoots. When my Scarlet-W is allocated, I should be ready with all the support gear fully tested and ready to roll. Thanks everyone who posted on this thread!

 

[Ben Scott]

Some overthinking going on here.

1) Do you want one?

2) Can you afford one?

3) Does it need to pay for itself and if so do you have a clientbase to do that?


The end.