People telling me not to buy a Red. Why?

[Raj Dye]

I am new to this forum. I am an independent filmmaker based in L.A. I have had several people advise me *not* to buy a Red camera. I am just puzzled by this advice. I don't want to get too specific, but I have friends and associates that spend thousands of dollars on expensive furniture, art, vacations... I don't tell them that they should not spend money in such a way. Yet they advise me not to spend money buying a Red.

I have had some people in the industry say "Find a DP and use their camera." I have had people say I should rent. The thing is, I would like to develop my own visual style. I want to DP and work closely with a friend who DPs for me. There is no way this person can afford to buy a Red Camera. I am shooing a documentary and the way I work requires many, many shooting days. I will probably shoot 30 to 40 days in the next 6 months. Why would it be better to rent for that many days?

I was told by one director friend of mine, "Don't buy a camera... cameras are easy to get. I'll loan you my camera." But he has a Luminx, and the DP he works with shoots on a Canon C300 (MK I). Then I was listening to a podcast, Indie Film hustle and Alex is saying essentially the story is more important and don't spend a lot of money on a camera. He is shooting on a Black Magic camera in 2K.

I don't think they are hating on me, but I don't really get it. When so many people give me the same advice, I think very carefully about it. I don't want to make the same mistakes other people made out of ignorance. But I think they are all wrong. I think I should get the Red and I have the money now to do it, I am just waiting for my camera allocation. After buying the red, I will still have a sizable production budget to make my film.

I understand that in either narrative, or documentary story is important probably more so than what camera you have. I understand that buying a Red doesn't automatically turn me into a professional DP. I don't understand people constantly giving me this advice. Advice is a tricky thing to give and to receive. How would you apply or interpret this advice? Can anyone help to enlighten me about this? Has anyone had a similar experience?

 

[Matt Johnston]

Buy whatever camera you can afford and shoot the crap out of it. Every day.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

A lot of this depends on context and your experience level. If you have done a lot of work with say DSLR etc already and have some solid experience, then a camera like a Scarlet W could be a great investment in your craft. If not then spending tens of thousands to kit yourself out could be premature or a waste, unless money is no issue for you. Furniture and vacations are an immediate pleasure. They are not a tool that requires the owner to work and study to make use of the privilege of ownership. So maybe your friends are not against Red, they are just trying to be 'sensible'.

 

[Andy_Johnson]

They're probably in the queue themselves and don't want any more people in line

 

[David W. Jones]

I was going to give you a long winded post, but I deleted it.

Instead I will just give this little bit of advice.

Rent the camera kit you are interested in purchasing for a short term.

That way you know firsthand the workflow needed, if your computer system if up to snuff, and have firsthand knowledge of any other gear you are going to need to shoot your documentary, such as microphones, lights, tripod/fluid head, electric & grip, and so on.

All the best!

Dave

 

[Elsie N]

Buying vs renting... you make perfect sense in wanting to own your camera as, like you say, you will be shooting many days. I think for documentarians or Indies, especially, owning gives you a freedom you may not have as a renter.

As for why buy a RED camera? My personal experience has been that it gives me everything I need to create imagery. That is, not only is the camera fine-tuned to the firmware, but also to the software in house (REDCINE PRO) but has special relationships with other NLEs that are in symbiosis.

And of course there is REDCODE RAW that means all you have to do is get the most information possible in the file and you can then take that piece of clay and mold it into any finished shape or form you choose... that is, YOU make it unique. You can learn to do this yourself with all the tools provided, or hire it done by the many thousands who already are steeped in the culture.

Just from the tone of your original post, I get that you may be interested in becoming steeped in the culture yourself, so therein lies your answer.

RED is a culture, rather than just a camera.

 

[Raj Dye]

Thanks all for taking the time to read this and share your thoughts. My artistic instincts say that I need to shoot on The Red camera. I am experienced on shooting with DSLRs.

As a business person, I can make a spread sheet basically showing me that I can own the Scarlet-W for the same cost as renting it for about 70 days. Also, I could buy the camera, shoot on it for a year, then sell it then it would probably only cost me $6,000 to $8,000. That is much less than renting a camera for a year.

As for computing power, I have some heavy iron, I won't get into the specs here, but dealing with Redcode Raw is not going to be a problem. I understand the advantage of a raw format. I have worked with canon raw CR2 still images a lot.

I appreciate the advice and encouragement.

 

[ericyoung]

If you have work lined up that will definitely pay for it within 18 months, then buy. If not, then rent.

Bear in mind that it's not just the camera body - you need enough media & power to shoot all day, monitor and EVF, and grip equipment, plus spares of all the cables. And a backup plan in case of equipment failure.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Since you don't have any camera at the moment, the question you need to ask is if RED is the only camera that can help turning your vision into reality. Why is it so? As a story teller one should select the cameras based on the story. The audience doesn't give a damn about which camera you are shooting with.

If you have very strong reasons that you can defend logically, then the next question is whether you hire or buy.

If you hire the equipment, I am assuming with another DP. If you want to operate, then ask yourself, if as a director/producer you would hire yourself as DP with your own strengths and weakness. It is always tempting to shoot your own stuff. However, there is a huge learning curve. Better to hire someone who can handle your shoot so that you can critique the shots impassionately. It is difficult to throw away shots that we have shot ourselves. If you think that your skill sets as a DP are good enough that your production will not suffer, then you can hire yourself. These days RED cameras are available pretty cheap on rent. Unless you want the latest and greatest. There are tons of RED Epics in the market.

Some points to ponder:
Editing CR2 files which is stills raw can be done in any laptop. Video raw files are way different. As David rightly said, think about your workflow.

Resale value of your camera may not be what you think you will get.

The people who have advised you must be the ones who you know and who know you better than us. Why you want to hear from us who don't even know you? Asking in a RED forum so that we will kind of agree with your decision to buy RED?

Why not tie up with some DPs in your locality and discuss. There is a chance that your vision as filmmaker may be better served by teaming up with someone even better than you. Afterall filmmaking is a team game.

 

[jordan levy]

well, the first problem is that you are taking the advice from someone that has a lumix and someone that calls them self a dp and owns a c300.
if you want professional long lasting quality you have two choices, red and arri.
red makes sense, especially now, since its completely affordable.
but you should maybe rent one, or borrow one, or even just set up a demo at red hollywood and see if its for you. no one here can work that part of it out for you or give you that kind of advice, but if your gut says it is, then listen to yourself before anyone else.
i bet if you did have a red camera both of those people will be asking to use your camera! also they might just be jealous that you can afford it and they cant.
story is important but so is the image, especially on someone starting out.

 

[Ash Worth]

if you want professional long lasting quality you have two choices, red and arri.

I thought the days of dumb comments like these were over. There are plenty of working professionals out there using Canon, the fact is there are more documentary professionals using C300's than any other other camera. And when you factor in resell value, long lasting quality becomes a mute point, especially when there are more documented issues with RED cameras than Canon cinema series models.

Just do the math on media storage and power and then make a choice. You are making a documentary, you are shooting many days, make your decesions based on this information rather than the advice of RED camera owners. Just be smart about it.

 

[Marcel M]

i think your getting plenty of great advice here... have you works or had extensive time with the red workflow? I see your in LA I would attend one of the DSMC2 classes or the RED underground events at Red Hollywood. I think the biggest question to ask yourself is budget can you afford to buy? if not rent til you can if it makes sense. I shoot locally all the time your also welcome to join if you would like

I am new to this forum. I am an independent filmmaker based in L.A. I have had several people advise me *not* to buy a Red camera. I am just puzzled by this advice. I don't want to get too specific, but I have friends and associates that spend thousands of dollars on expensive furniture, art, vacations... I don't tell them that they should not spend money in such a way. Yet they advise me not to spend money buying a Red.

I have had some people in the industry say "Find a DP and use their camera." I have had people say I should rent. The thing is, I would like to develop my own visual style. I want to DP and work closely with a friend who DPs for me. There is no way this person can afford to buy a Red Camera. I am shooing a documentary and the way I work requires many, many shooting days. I will probably shoot 30 to 40 days in the next 6 months. Why would it be better to rent for that many days?

I was told by one director friend of mine, "Don't buy a camera... cameras are easy to get. I'll loan you my camera." But he has a Luminx, and the DP he works with shoots on a Canon C300 (MK I). Then I was listening to a podcast, Indie Film hustle and Alex is saying essentially the story is more important and don't spend a lot of money on a camera. He is shooting on a Black Magic camera in 2K.

I don't think they are hating on me, but I don't really get it. When so many people give me the same advice, I think very carefully about it. I don't want to make the same mistakes other people made out of ignorance. But I think they are all wrong. I think I should get the Red and I have the money now to do it, I am just waiting for my camera allocation. After buying the red, I will still have a sizable production budget to make my film.

I understand that in either narrative, or documentary story is important probably more so than what camera you have. I understand that buying a Red doesn't automatically turn me into a professional DP. I don't understand people constantly giving me this advice. Advice is a tricky thing to give and to receive. How would you apply or interpret this advice? Can anyone help to enlighten me about this? Has anyone had a similar experience?

 

[jordan levy]

I thought the days of dumb comments like these were over. There are plenty of working professionals out there using Canon, the fact is there are more documentary professionals using C300's than any other other camera. And when you factor in resell value, long lasting quality becomes a mute point, especially when there are more documented issues with RED cameras than Canon cinema series models.

Just do the math on media storage and power and then make a choice. You are making a documentary, you are shooting many days, make your decesions based on this information rather than the advice of RED camera owners. Just be smart about it.

wow, forgive me, you are so right!
he should totally get a completely outdated c300 that shoots h264, or better yet a way over priced c300 mk2 for $12000, thats already been price cut $4000, that still shoots h264.
that has to be better then cameras that shoot raw or prores or dnxhd, right?
yeah!

 

[Brody_B]

Just get the Red you know you want to. hahaha

 

[Raj Dye]

Since you don't have any camera at the moment, the question you need to ask is if RED is the only camera that can help turning your vision into reality.

Interesting question. Red is not the *only* camera. I have ordered the Sony A7S II to use as a B camera. Red is what my artistic instincts say I should use. I have looked at the Sony FS7. The specs are great on this, but to me the motion cadence tuns my stomach.

Why is it so? As a story teller one should select the cameras based on the story. The audience doesn't give a damn about which camera you are shooting with.

I can tell a story with series of drawings, or even a puppet show. The Red is what I dream to use though.

If you have very strong reasons that you can defend logically...

My intuition tells me to use Red. I can defend it logically, but logic serves passion in this case.

Then the next question is whether you hire or buy

If you hire the equipment, I am assuming with another DP. If you want to operate, then ask yourself, if as a director/producer you would hire yourself as DP with your own strengths and weakness.

Interesting question. No I would not hire myself as DP.

It is always tempting to shoot your own stuff. However, there is a huge learning curve. Better to hire someone who can handle your shoot so that you can critique the shots impassionately. It is difficult to throw away shots that we have shot ourselves

Good Point. I haven't thought of this before.

Unless you want the latest and greatest. There are tons of RED Epics in the market.

I have looked at the used market. I was considering, but I don't feel I know the camera system well enough to buy used. I like the price point of the Scarlet-W

Editing CR2 files which is stills raw can be done in any laptop. Video raw files are way different. As David rightly said, think about your workflow.

I have three 4770K based machines. One has a 980 Ti. The others can be upgraded. I have a background in software engineering so this I am not worried about at all.

Resale value of your camera may not be what you think you will get.

I have no way to know. I just guess it will depreciate 25% per year for the first 3 years then maybe 10% per year.

The people who have advised you must be the ones who you know and who know you better than us. Why you want to hear from us who don't even know you? Asking in a RED forum so that we will kind of agree with your decision to buy RED?

Haha yeah. I am just puzzled by advice from people... they dont know my shooting schedule, they dont know my financial situation. I think that people here will understand my desire to shoot on Red. I don't necessarily think people will agree with my choice to buy a Red.

Why not tie up with some DPs in your locality and discuss. There is a chance that your vision as filmmaker may be better served by teaming up with someone even better than you. Afterall filmmaking is a team game.

Something to consider. If I want to become better, then it seems wize to work with people better than me.

 

[Raj Dye]

well, the first problem is that you are taking the advice from someone that has a lumix and someone that calls them self a dp and owns a c300. if you want professional long lasting quality you have two choices, red and arri.

Yeah I am hearing their advice, but I am not planning to take their advice. I am just trying to understand their advice. I agree, It's either Red or Arri. I saw the doumentary "Cartel Land" which was shot by Matthew Heineman on a C300 MK I. I really enjoyed it and think that he deserved to be nominated for an Oscar for Best Documentary Feature. Had he shot it on the Red, maybe he would have won

red makes sense, especially now, since its completely affordable.

I am lucky, yes, that it is affordable to me.

but you should maybe rent one, or borrow one, or even just set up a demo at red hollywood and see if its for you.

I went to the Hollywood store a couple times and went to the DSMC2 workshop.

no one here can work that part of it out for you or give you that kind of advice, but if your gut says it is, then listen to yourself before anyone else.

Thanks. I have a farely strong gear lust at times... so distinguish that from my gut instincts and an artist and business person has been a challenge. But yeah

i bet if you did have a red camera both of those people will be asking to use your camera! also they might just be jealous that you can afford it and they cant.

That might be. No, I am sure that is the case. I am sort of figuring out now, that they know Red is a better choice, but they suffered with inferior cameras so why shouldn't I...lol

story is important but so is the image, especially on someone starting out.

I agree. I think story is more important and more difficult. My first documentary was shot on Hi-8 tape lol. So Red is within my reach now so I am just going for it!

 

[Raj Dye]

have you works or had extensive time with the red workflow?

No I haven't. I am very confident I can learn that due to my background in software engineering and the compute power I have laying around.

I see your in LA I would attend one of the DSMC2 classes or the RED underground events at Red Hollywood.

Yup been ton one and should be going to 2 more. Maybe I'll see you there?

I think the biggest question to ask yourself is budget can you afford to buy? if not rent til you can if it makes sense. I shoot locally all the time your also welcome to join if you would like

Yeah I can afford to buy a new scarlet-w without going into any debt. I have Milivus lenses already. Yeah, I'll PM you. Thanks would love to join you on a shoot sometime!

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

I think the RED system is great in some situations and less great in others.

Lots of owners/operators that work as a single shooter (probably the vast majority of shooters out there spread across the various communities) fall into the 'other' category. They depend on a smaller package that's easy to power where media prices are at a consumer/prosumer level. They might also benefit greatly from auto focus and so on.

People tend to recommend what's good for THEM initially, unless you give a very extensive description about YOUR needs.

 

[Craig Parkes]

Honestly the biggest reason you shouldn't buy a RED is not having a clear handle on why you shouldn't buy a RED.

Let me explain. Every camera system has sttengths and weaknesses. RED's are great cameras, but I have worked on a feature Doc shot on a C300 that looked amazing and I very much doubt shooting on RED would have improved it - the talent lay with the DOP and he chose the C300 for many practical reasons about the nature of the documentary.

Will your subject matter benefit from internal ND filters, what is your battery budget both financially but also in terms of shooting/recharge time/weight.

Will you need to pack down quickly. Will you always have a separate sound operator or might you need to do pick up / last minute interviews by yourself.

Some of the above things other cameras will be better for, or at least better for without significant accesories on the Red camera. How much low light shooting will you be doing?

The feature documentary I post supervised shot on C300 had a few shots that would have looked better on RED, but those few shots have a very small overall impact on the documentary compared to the impact of having the right overall camera package for a given days shooting is.

What either version of the C300 has going for it is that it is designed with a fairly specific market segment in mind and if your project falls within that style of production you'll find that the camera is already kitted out pretty well for a broad range scenarios you'll come across.

All the RED cameras need you to build a kit out specifically for your shooting needs. Somethings can't really be replicated (motion mount or a variable ND in front of the lens may solve some issues created by not having internal ND filters, but it's not the same as internal NDs)

If you know exactly how you are going ro build out your kit, or can afford to experiment and learn whats missing as you go, RED is a great choice. If you don't know what situations you'll be walking into then cameras and don't have the experience to know how you'll deal with a wide range of situations, having a specific feature set of tools in the camera by default may in fact outweigh the latitude offered by greater resolution/colour correction flexibility in post.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

I will say two things. First, I own a woven Weapon CF and two Weapon MG cameras. Second, a camera should be the last thing you buy. How to reconcile the two?

Some folks shoot nature. Some shoot aerials. Some shoot VFX. Some shoot clubs. Some shoot fashion. Whatever your subject, whatever your location, whatever the style you have in mind, you must first get a handle on how you plan to approach your subject--literally--in terms of viewpoint motivation, lighting, lensing, etc. Mark Toia has a helicopter for his camera. That's not cheap! At a much more modest level, I have spent more on lenses and lighting than I have on my cameras. What you have clarity on how much your dream-ready and vision-ready system is going to cost, you, too, might find that the cost of the camera is small, and very affordable. Or you may find that it's so ridiculously expensive that you can only afford to rent. Which then begs the question--why buy a camera if you cannot afford everything else that you need in order to use it?

Of course there's a middle ground--some core set of production tools that you can afford to own and some cool toys you can only afford to rent. But I think the equation is this: if you cannot afford to drop 4x the cost of a basic RED kit on everything that's going to make it actually production-ready: computers, monitors, media, storage, lighting, grip, lensing, support, microphones, sound recorders, etc., then buying a RED at this point might actually interfere with actually getting you where you need to go. But renting can get you a step down that path, and with each step you might find others who are sufficiently encouraging of that journey that they help you take the next and the next and the next.